49 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

PILLAR OF DESIGN: ROLE WARFARE

We heard a ton about Role Warfare when the game first came out and for a while, it seemed pretty solid. We had lots of balance problems, but it seemed like other than AC ballistics, we had a pretty good role defined for each major play style.

... then the nerfs happened, arm lock happened and PPCs were left the "last gun standing."

This poll is purely to clarify how you feel about each of the major roles in the game, and how they are currently performing within the meta. I cannot stress enough, voting something overpowered doesn't mean to break out the nerf bat. Ratings should be relative to the current meta, not our objective numbers.

That said.. how do you feel role warfare, a founding principle of the game, is holding up?

Edited by Victor Morson, 27 June 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[FrostCollar]

Not too well, at present. Long range high alphas still dominate, scouting and support is only of modest use, and the number of truly effective builds and weapons are limited.

[Victor Morson]

Scouting / Base Rescue is a big deal in organized league games, but you're right, it's not so much in pug matches. God help you if you try to play an 8 man where the other team just goes all assaults and sits on their base, because if you bring recon in that situation, it's useless and simply leaves you outgunned.

[Dracol]

Vote neither over nor under powered for all answers due to the upcoming terrain change.

That is a major system that will completely change how the game is played.

With snipers unable to take high positions unless with jj, the evectiveness off ppcs and guass reliant builds may go down considerably.

Edited by Dracol, 27 June 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I am puzzled how people think "cavalry" or reasonably fast mediums/heavies can be overpowered in the current game.

[edit] Probably people who dislike lights, going by the way the questions are laid out.

Edited by One Medic Army, 27 June 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[General Taskeen]

On two things in particular: Since ECM and BAP don't do what they are supposed to do, they contribute nothing to the so called 'Information Warfare' that was supposed to be a design pillar.

[RG Notch]

Victor Morson, on 27 June 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Scouting / Base Rescue is a big deal in organized league games, but you're right, it's not so much in pug matches. God help you if you try to play an 8 man where the other team just goes all assaults and sits on their base, because if you bring recon in that situation, it's useless and simply leaves you outgunned.

I find the camping technique is OP due to the lousy assault mode mechanics.

[Dracol]

General Taskeen, on 27 June 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

On two things in particular: Since ECM and BAP don't do what they are supposed to do, they contribute nothing to the so called 'Information Warfare' that was supposed to be a design pillar.

I disagree. BAb with its extended range (add moduale for added benifit) allows scouts who stay at range to target with out appearing on radar.

ECM allows the same benifit of spotting and identifying enemy positions without automatically appearing on radar.

[Victor Morson]

Dracol, on 27 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Vote neither over nor under powered for all answers due to the upcoming terrain change.

I like it, but you are vastly overestimating it's impact on the current meta.

Dracol, on 27 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I disagree. BAb with its extended range (add moduale for added benifit) allows scouts who stay at range to target with out appearing on radar.

I don't know what BAb is, but BAP sure doesn't offer much benefit this way. If you're a scout and you're just trying to spot targets, try voice / typing. B

BAP is primarily good for faster missile locks and countering the binary ECM they setup, really. Which isn't really IW.

Dracol, on 27 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

ECM allows the same benifit of spotting and identifying enemy positions without automatically appearing on radar.

ECM does a lot more than that, but it is now nerf'ed into the world's worst game of rock, paper, scissors. It's binary implementation in regards to locks and jams is something nobody has ever enjoyed, so it just got nerfed out of mattering.

[General Taskeen]

Dracol, on 27 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I disagree. BAb with its extended range (add moduale for added benifit) allows scouts who stay at range to target with out appearing on radar.

ECM allows the same benifit of spotting and identifying enemy positions without automatically appearing on radar.

That's not what they did. You could target an enemy Mech and not see what their loadout was. I.E. Information. ECM/BAP are nothing more than combat items as they are currently programmed. Actual Information Warfare would be like soft counters and abilities like ghost targeting, not hard countering entire sets of weapons.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 June 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[stjobe]

General Taskeen, on 27 June 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

That's not what they did. You could target an enemy Mech and not see what their loadout was. I.E. Information. ECM/BAP are nothing more than combat items as they are currently programmed. Actual Information Warfare would be like soft counters and abilities like ghost targeting, not hard countering entire sets of weapons.

Let's all go back to Dev Blog 4, read it and weep. That's what they had planned, and boy would I love it if they somehow managed to make their way back to that. Proper role warfare.

[Hellcat420]

mechlab killed any chance of role warfare in this game.

[PEEFsmash]

Cool poll.

[Victor Morson]

General Taskeen, on 27 June 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

That's not what they did. You could target an enemy Mech and not see what their loadout was. I.E. Information. ECM/BAP are nothing more than combat items as they are currently programmed. Actual Information Warfare would be like soft counters and abilities like ghost targeting, not hard countering entire sets of weapons.

I'd been happy if all the LRM targeting stuff was made far more powerful, and ECM pretty much existed entirely to counter that.

They basically tried to jam elements of the AECM into the ECM and screwed it all up with their own spin on that abomination.

Hellcat420, on 27 June 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

mechlab killed any chance of role warfare in this game.

Funny, it never did in MW4 (all incarnations).

[stjobe]

Victor Morson, on 27 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

They basically tried to jam elements of the AECM into the ECM and screwed it all up with their own spin on that abomination

Don't forget our beloved ECM also has the abilities of Stealth Armor and Null Signature System - so it's actually a conglomeration of four distinct pieces of equipment, most of which weigh more or take up more slots than our ECM does, and some of which are quite a few years down the time-line.

ECM+AECM+SA+NSS = MWO ECM.

[ryoma]

Wow at those poll results!

Also what's this role warfare thingy? I remember some video about it, but all that isn't actually part of the game.

[stjobe]

ryoma, on 27 June 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Also what's this role warfare thingy? I remember some video about it, but all that isn't actually part of the game.

Dev Blog 3 - Role warfare
Dev Blog 4 - Role warfare (cont.)

It's what they planned on doing a year, year and a half back. It's what they sold us the Founder packs on. It's what we want, but likely won't get.

Edited by stjobe, 27 June 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Victor Morson, on 27 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I'd been happy if all the LRM targeting stuff was made far more powerful, and ECM pretty much existed entirely to counter that.

They basically tried to jam elements of the AECM into the ECM and screwed it all up with their own spin on that abomination.



Funny, it never did in MW4 (all incarnations).

mw4 mechlab was much more restricted. you couldnt just pull out an mg and slap a gauss in its hardpoint in mw4, for example, which made mechs actually stick to their roles.

Edited by Hellcat420, 27 June 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Role warfare has degenerated into killers and cappers.

Information warfare has degenerated into block-missiles and unblock-missiles. Also, Seismic turns it into Information Welfare because it lets you know everything around you at all times (takes the effort out of it).

Brawling is only effective in short range, and often even not that effective at all. Sniping is effective at every range and that is just plain wrong.

[Victor Morson]

Hellcat420, on 27 June 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

mw4 mechlab was much more restricted. you couldnt just pull out an mg and slap a gauss in its hardpoint in mw4, for example.

People always bring this up. Now I want to say I agree that hardpoint limitations are a good thing, but not because of this. Because quite simply we're already nearing a point that there is very little to make one 'mech different from another. You simply won't need much more by next year, as they no longer have new things to offer.

However, balance wise, I don't see it as a problem. Why? Because whatever you wanted to boat/do in MW4, they had a boat for that, pretty much. Wanna run PPCs like crazy? Have a Novacat! Want to boat ballistics? Here, have a Thanatos!

So again, this isn't making a difference balance wise, because balance wise there's no difference between two identical tonnage 'mechs doing, say, twin Gauss and one 'mech doing it and one 'mech not. There is however more room for creativity in the variants, but that's a whole other can of worms.

EDIT: I bring MW4 up because even in the worst versions of it you generally had: Snipers & LRM Support in the rear, covered by tanking mediums up front, and a scout or two searching for you; sometimes you'd get a sneaky ECM/BAP 'mech to flank around the edges and harass the enemy. Sure that changed over time, but my point is there were roles. Lots of different roles. That's why I bring it up despite things like having atrocious medium lasers until Mercenaries & HC.

Edited by Victor Morson, 27 June 2013 - 05:15 PM.