30 replies to this topic

[Grey Black]

So the recent gameplay meta we've seen has been mostly focused around the fact that whoever has the most weight wins. This is a very fair assessment, as the current meta is currently balanced around whoever brings the most firepower winning, resulting in drops consisting of 4 DDC, 2 Highlander, 1 CTF-3D, and a Jenner. Much talk has been made about how to fix this current meta and increase the viability of mediums and lights; especially mediums, as they don't usually have the speed of lights nor the firepower of heavies resulting in a confused mess.

Now, I have a theory about how this will be fixed: What needs to be done is to tweak the upper speed limit from 150kph to ~200kph and implement MASC.

How will this increase the viability of lights? First of all, consider that a Cataphract's top speed with MASC would likely be no more than 100kph. While that seems huge, also consider that MASC would damage legs (most likely) and make it very risky for most mechs if they don't simply implement a MASC hardpoint for mechs much akin to the ECM hardpoint. In saying that, increasing that upper speed limit to 200 would allow the Jenner and Raven to actually make differences in the current meta, the Centurion running at 140kph would be useful for the amount of firepower it brings, and the current high end alpha status quo would not be as severe.

Obviously, there are technical limitations here, but I could conceivably see PGI balancing in this way in addition to however they increase the heat. Any dissenters here?

[AnnoyingCat]

meh, im doing just fine in me hunchy

[PEEFsmash]

I don't know about the whole MASC thing, but...

I think light speed should be between 180-200. Average Med speed should be around 100-105. Average Heavy speed should be around 65, and average assault speed should be around 40.

[LauLiao]

I don't have any problems in my mediums. Regularly beat heavies and assaults in damage. I think the main issue with lights and mediums is that too many people think of them as "beginner" mechs, since in pretty much very MW game ever they've basically eased you into mechs starting with light or medium chasis and slowly moving you up to assault. In reality, new players are generally better off going with something with more armor until they can master the finer points of not being hit by enemy fire.

Then because people have such a rough time with lights/mediums to start they just assume that there is something wrong with the weight class because they've "already tried" piloting those classes.

[GODzillaGSPB]

I like mediums and fare pretty well in them. I wont even try to argue that winning against an enemy team with 5 assaults is impossible, I can't prove it is. But it is simply no fun. It is unfair. Assaults, in my opinion, currently rule the game.

[megoblocks]

AnnoyingCat, on 30 June 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

meh, im doing just fine in me hunchy

I do quite well in both of my blackjacks as well. Fix pointpoint alpha damage and to a lesser degree, give SRMs a boost that they need, and you'll see mediums shine again,

Edited by megoblocks, 30 June 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Urdnot Mau]

Hardly a solution. Mediums will still have a very limited amount of armor and will be 1 shoted by 40+ pinpoint damage alphas (even if they have armor). 40 points of armor on the torsos. One shot and a whole match is ruined for a medium mech. It's hardly worth playing because most people are runnings PPCs and/or AC 20s. Current state of the game offers too much rewards for too little sacrifice for a high alpha build. You think XL is a bad thing for a 4 PPC awesome ? Everyone goes for the torsos... 4 PPC+Gauss atlas? It can run a good STD, no drama at all. 2 alphas, then chainfire PPCs, use of cover, problem solved.

[DocBach]

Urdnot Mau, on 30 June 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Hardly a solution. Mediums will still have a very limited amount of armor and will be 1 shoted by 40+ pinpoint damage alphas (even if they have armor). 40 points of armor on the torsos. One shot and a whole match is ruined for a medium mech. It's hardly worth playing because most people are runnings PPCs and/or AC 20s. Current state of the game offers too much rewards for too little sacrifice for a high alpha build. You think XL is a bad thing for a 4 PPC awesome ? Everyone goes for the torsos... 4 PPC+Gauss atlas? It can run a good STD, no drama at all. 2 alphas, then chainfire PPCs, use of cover, problem solved.

This is the problem for mediums - bigger 'Mechs can cripple you in a salvo - most of the mediums aren't fast enough to evade, and if you use an XL to be faster are even easier to be one shotted by the larger 'Mechs pin point alpha. A change to alpha strikes/group weapons is necessary to make mediums less fragile:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by DocBach, 30 June 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Ningyo]

From what I have heard the devs ran into a problem with cryengine that either prevented or caused bugs at speeds of much over 150 kph. I am not sure if they are working on fixing these problems, now or if they have other things they are working on. My understanding though is that this is not a design plan issue, but a technical how to do this issue. Once they figure that out this may start to happen.


EDIT: oh and cannot guarantee accuracy on this just saw it in multiple posts I have read and pretty sure one had a quote from a dev.

Edited by Ningyo, 30 June 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[aniviron]

Speed is a part of the problem, but not the biggest part of it. Players with good aim can hit 150kph lights now, they could hit much bigger 140kph mediums after this change. While a speed boost sounds nice, all it will do is frustrate the people who already whine about mediums and lights without really changing their survivability.

As long as there is no reason not to take a mech that can do 40-60 damage reliably in one shot, mediums will not be good.

[Deathlike]

It has everything to do with the Flea. If they don't fix the netcode, there will be no Flea, and there certainly won't be a Locust.

Of course, if they release it as is w/o changing the netcode, those mechs are free meals for 3Ls and Jenners.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lights in general are already borderline overpowered as lets be honest, the amout of firepower typically directed at killing a single Jenner would fell an Atlas 3 times over (when you consider 75% of the fire misses the Jenner or cannot be concentrated against a single location which wouldn't happen on an Altas).

Mediums also have a very distinctive role, Support. If built right they are faster and more moblie that any heavy/assault mech but also have enough firepower to significantly damage if not outright kill Assault mechs.

The problem is that piloting medium has a significantly steeper learning curve than piloting a Heavy or Assault and the vast majority of people just want easy. I mean lets face it, when your moving as slow as an Assault, it is pretty easy to just plod along and line up on the enemy and fire accurately. However change that speed to 97 kph, add in jump jetting around, plus having to rely on avoidance of damage rather than armor for survivability and you have a whole other level of difficulty to be successful.

In a nutshell the problem isn't the medium mech it is the player mentality. The simple fact is not many people are going to take the time to aquire the skills necessary to be successful in a medium mech, not when it is just easier and simpler to roll out in a Stalker and mash a few buttons to victory.

[Zyllos]

Viktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Lights in general are already borderline overpowered as lets be honest, the amout of firepower typically directed at killing a single Jenner would fell an Atlas 3 times over (when you consider 75% of the fire misses the Jenner or cannot be concentrated against a single location which wouldn't happen on an Altas).

Mediums also have a very distinctive role, Support. If built right they are faster and more moblie that any heavy/assault mech but also have enough firepower to significantly damage if not outright kill Assault mechs.

The problem is that piloting medium has a significantly steeper learning curve than piloting a Heavy or Assault and the vast majority of people just want easy. I mean lets face it, when your moving as slow as an Assault, it is pretty easy to just plod along and line up on the enemy and fire accurately. However change that speed to 97 kph, add in jump jetting around, plus having to rely on avoidance of damage rather than armor for survivability and you have a whole other level of difficulty to be successful.

In a nutshell the problem isn't the medium mech it is the player mentality. The simple fact is not many people are going to take the time to aquire the skills necessary to be successful in a medium mech, not when it is just easier and simpler to roll out in a Stalker and mash a few buttons to victory.

And you know what? Most of that damage that can't be concentrated also hits the CT way too often. So technically the Jenner (and Cicada) should be lasting much longer than normal.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Lights in general are already borderline overpowered as lets be honest, the amout of firepower typically directed at killing a single Jenner would fell an Atlas 3 times over (when you consider 75% of the fire misses the Jenner or cannot be concentrated against a single location which wouldn't happen on an Altas).

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 30 June 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Dead serious.

Unless the Jenner (or insert other light mech here) is an dummy (ID10T is apparent a bad word) and just stands still, the amout of firepower that is directed at stopping it is at LEAST 3x that of what would stop an Assault mech. All you have to do is watch some Jenner pop up in the mist of your team early. Everyone will stop moving and the entire team will unload alpha after alpha trying to hit the Jenner and the Jenner more often than not just keeps on running around till it gets tired of playing then runs off only to come back later and do it all over again.

Now let an Assault briefly pop over a hill where it is in the field of fire of 8 enemy mechs.....yeah we know how that story ends....in about 10 seconds flat.

Basicaly a fast light mech recieves most of its ability to survive, not from armor but from speed. Then throw 192 AF (what my Jenner has) on top of that speed, give it 4 Medium Pulse Lasers and yes, you absolutely have a borderline OPed mech.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 30 June 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

OP'd, until they meet mister streakcat.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Dead serious.

Unless the Jenner (or insert other light mech here) is an dummy (ID10T is apparent a bad word) and just stands still, the amout of firepower that is directed at stopping it is at LEAST 3x that of what would stop an Assault mech. All you have to do is watch some Jenner pop up in the mist of your team early. Everyone will stop moving and the entire team will unload alpha after alpha trying to hit the Jenner and the Jenner more often than not just keeps on running around till it gets tired of playing then runs off only to come back later and do it all over again.

Now let an Assault briefly pop over a hill where it is in the field of fire of 8 enemy mechs.....yeah we know how that story ends....in about 10 seconds flat.

Basicaly a fast light mech recieves most of its ability to survive, not from armor but from speed. Then throw 192 AF (what my Jenner has) on top of that speed, give it 4 Medium Pulse Lasers and yes, you absolutely have a borderline OPed mech.

In my experience, the Jenner takes a crapload of damage or dies outright no matter how fast he's going or how jumpy he is. The guys on your team must not have had very good aim or weren't using PPCs (PPCs are very easy to hit fast targets with due to almost no leading required).


You're right that most of a light's survivablilty comes from its mobility, but you're grossly overexaggerating its ability to avoid fire. The only light I see come even remotely that close to your exaggerated survivability is a Spider, and even those are easy to pop with some PPCs (at least for me, and I'm not claiming to have good aim; it's just that PPCs are easy as balls to hit lights with unless they're at long range).

Edited by FupDup, 30 June 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[ChapeL]

My gut reation is this, if I wanted to run around at 140 kph I would be driving a light mech. ( and would be very bad in them )

The appeal of mediums to me is the blend of responsiveness and firepower... and indeed, everything is fine in those exceedingly rare matches where there are a majority of mediums and lights on both teams.

The issue to me is mostly centered around the lack of economic reasons to take a smaller, cheaper more easily repaired chassis over a 100 ton monster every game

[Demuder]

FupDup, on 30 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

In my experience, the Jenner takes a crapload of damage or dies outright no matter how fast he's going or how jumpy he is. The guys on your team must not have had very good aim or weren't using PPCs (PPCs are very easy to hit fast targets with due to almost no leading required).

You're right that most of a light's survivablilty comes from its mobility, but you're grossly overexaggerating its ability to avoid fire. The only light I see come even remotely that close to your exaggerated survivability is a Spider, and even those are easy to pop with some PPCs (at least for me, and I'm not claiming to have good aim; it's just that PPCs are easy as balls to hit lights with unless they're at long range).

However, if the high pinpoint alpha matter is resolved, or if people stop boating PPCs (meaning you will finder fewer per team) then Jenners and lights will become... unkillable ?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that lights are overpowered, but I understand where Viktor is coming from. The amount of time and fire a team needs to dedicate to killing a light is triple the amount of fire and time the same team needs to dedicate to take down an assault. In fact, it's triple than the amount of time and fire they would need for any class other than a light. That simply doesn't sound right.

The problem though is not the speed per se, but the fact that gameplay right now allows light pilots to abuse it - especially with the lack of collisions. Speed is supposed to be used to get in position fast, scout and give the pilot the option whether to engage or disengage when they choose. Right now all it does is give you a "lag" or "aim" shield that light pilots abuse ad nauseam (literally). The notion of a light running circles around an assault is simply ridiculous, however, we see far too often.

In all fairness though, there's not much else a light can do other than harass or circle to death assaults right now.

[One Medic Army]

dimstog, on 01 July 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

However, if the high pinpoint alpha matter is resolved, or if people stop boating PPCs (meaning you will finder fewer per team) then Jenners and lights will become... unkillable ?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that lights are overpowered, but I understand where Viktor is coming from. The amount of time and fire a team needs to dedicate to killing a light is triple the amount of fire and time the same team needs to dedicate to take down an assault. In fact, it's triple than the amount of time and fire they would need for any class other than a light. That simply doesn't sound right.

The problem though is not the speed per se, but the fact that gameplay right now allows light pilots to abuse it - especially with the lack of collisions. Speed is supposed to be used to get in position fast, scout and give the pilot the option whether to engage or disengage when they choose. Right now all it does is give you a "lag" or "aim" shield that light pilots abuse ad nauseam (literally). The notion of a light running circles around an assault is simply ridiculous, however, we see far too often.

In all fairness though, there's not much else a light can do other than harass or circle to death assaults right now.

Naw.
Lasers used to be the weapon of choice for killing lights, in fact I still like them for the purpose myself.
A pair of mediums aimed well is enough to drive off most light mechs, or make them regret not going away.
The good light pilots will recognize the few people who can actually aim regardless of weapons and avoid them like the plague.

Of course most light pilots aren't that great, can't dodge very well, are predictable, and almost never hold fire for the right section to become exposed.