117 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

PGI has indeed made some mistakes but lets be honest here, we made alot of assumptions.

For example you brought up the fact that money from the Founder's Program went to other projects. Well I agree that this fact sucks and ended up being a bad decision on PGIs part but not for the reasons you think it was a bad decision. Point of fact is that no where and at no time did they ever state that money from the Founder's Program would be used SOLELY to benefit and develop MWO. This is just an ASSUMPTION us founders made. The bad decision PGI made regarding this was that they didn't antisipate that Founder's would assume this and thus weren't ready for the fallout.

As far as being behind schedule, I guess I would like you to point out one MMO that has ever been on schedule. As far as I am aware there hasn't been any that didn't have some delays and the vast majority are never completely finished upon release.

That being said, MWO has come a long way. There was a point I was irrate as you the OP are and quite honestly only the fact that I had MC from the founders got me to come back and check it out again. I am glad I did because I am having loads of fun and have seen tons of progress. Are thier issues? yes absolutely, but even WoW as old as it is, still has issues and problems with balance. Unfortunately nothing is perfect.

So why buy the Phoenix Package? Because you enjoy the game and see that it has potential, even if that potential isn't being realized quite as fast as we hoped at times.

[jakucha]

So arrogant OP, and you'll never even realize it I bet. It's been confirmed that all Project Phoenix funds go towards MWO already. Otherwise you're just shouting into the wind. If you don't like it that is fine, but you're just saying "stop liking what I don't like".

Ari Dian, on 30 June 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

They should add more packs. Like they did on PoE. They have a nice deal, Ruler of Wraeclast Pack. 12.500$. And there are player who bought this.
Ok, you can design your own Monster with this. But PGI could do the same . Design your own mech .
And there are even quite a lot who bought the 1.250$ one.

Really. Some of you seem to dont get it. Money is relativ. For some these 80$ is nothing, for some its a fortune. And for some even 12k $ is not more as pocketmoney and are up to spend this much for a game they like.
Let everyone decide by themself if its worth for each person. If you dont want it or if you dont think its worth, dont buy it. But dont try to tell other player what to do or not.


Ask yourself the question if you have fun with the game or not. And if this is worth anything for you. Because if you have fun and think you will play it for a while, you should support it by spending money to it.
If you dont have fun you should ask yourself why you play something that you dont like .



And after all, no matter what other problems are there, the itemshop from MWO is fair and good. It is still not P2W (even if some might think it is). I have seen much worse F2P games.

It's funny, Path of Exile is operating in a similar manner as MWO. They're in open beta but there's still quite a bit of the game being made and added. That's a trend F2P betas are following now but everyone conveniently ignores that unfortunately.

Edited by jakucha, 01 July 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[armyof1]

GeneralFitzhugh, on 01 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Sorry Huge, but I can not agree with your position. This is a great game and my family and friends quite enjoy getting together to play. Yes I have been involved since closed Beta and as you pointed out it has only been a year. In one year PGI has accomplished the near impossible and for all your whining about this feature and that feature, so what, it was a concept a year ago with everything subject to change with objective timeframes that may or may not be achievable. Has there been problems and missed deadlines, absolutely, it happens. You mentioned CW, it is coming but how do you expect them to just launch it when there are other issues that have to been fixed or tuned to make sure everything is in place for CW. Where has the money gone? Does it matter. PGI is not a trust its a private company, perhaps you don't understand the difference. Yes I purchased the $120 Founders package and have no regrets, except for the hunchback just cant get the hang of that mech. Will I buy into the Phoenix, you bet just deciding at what level, most likely 2 or 3 as I am not into the big assaults. The only annoying thing is my fricking enter key won't work and let me start a new paragraph.

Wow you don't even care how they used the money you're tossing into the game. I'd say it sure as heck matters what happens with the money we put into the company. If just a small part of whatever they bring in is actually used for development while the rest goes to some off-shore account, sure as heck that would matter. I'm not saying that's what actually happens, but your not caring at all just because PGI is a company is truly astounding.

[Hexenhammer]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

PGI has indeed made some mistakes but lets be honest here, we made alot of assumptions.

Agreed. Everyone has with this game. As example. founders mechs have a 25% CBill bonus. But there a number of threads out there complaining that its not fair for founders to have a 25% bonus but hero mechs get 30%. PGI never stated 25% was max going to be the max and and PGI never promised founders would always have the top CBill bonus in the game.

[armyof1]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

PGI has indeed made some mistakes but lets be honest here, we made alot of assumptions.

For example you brought up the fact that money from the Founder's Program went to other projects. Well I agree that this fact sucks and ended up being a bad decision on PGIs part but not for the reasons you think it was a bad decision. Point of fact is that no where and at no time did they ever state that money from the Founder's Program would be used SOLELY to benefit and develop MWO. This is just an ASSUMPTION us founders made. The bad decision PGI made regarding this was that they didn't antisipate that Founder's would assume this and thus weren't ready for the fallout.

While I was not around when the initial founding was done, did they in any way whatsoever mention the money given to them was not only going to MWO but also to other projects? I mean if they'd ask for funding to create a new Mechwarrior game, why would anyone not assume the money would just be invested in this game?

Edited by armyof1, 01 July 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[Huge]

Yes yes silly us. Foolish and privilege entitled us.

ASSUMING common logic. ASSUMING a beta kickstarter would actually be used for the game we're playing. Sweet lord the arrogance of us to think like 99.9% of all people would.


Is all the Phoenix money going to MWO? Well they say it is. That is beside the point. I brought up the shady way they spread the Founder's cash around as an example of how they do business. Under handed and while not illegal, sure as hell isn't right. I want them to make good on promises made a year ago during the first money drive and make a game worth spending money on. Before giving them another buttload of cash.

[Aim64C]

ryoma, on 30 June 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

1. Standard variants. Who actually pays MC for those?

Not many - because the cost isn't usually worth it.

In this case, however, you're getting as many as 12 mechs with their mech bays. I don't even have 12 mechs, yet, and I've been playing since around January.

And to get even 5 mechs using MC would run close to the price of the Overlord package. Not to mention premium time that I never purchase.

Quote

2. Awful hard point selection for the medium and light Phoenix Variants. They are not hero mechs because they do not have exclusive hard points.

It'd be fun to run the Locust with an AC2 and TAG on a prebuilt team. They really need to buff the incentives for those types of support/scout and capture roles, though. Getting XP for it is going to be a little difficult.

Quote

3. You can pick what you buy for MC

Yes, but that's not really the point of the Phoenix package.

Quote

4. You can ACTUALLY buy a hero mech of those chassis eventually.

True. But the hero mechs won't come with the loyalty bonuses, either - which may play a huge role in the upcoming features.

Quote

5. The Locust is a piece of garbage

Then I suppose whomever I end up killing with it is worse than garbage.

Quote

6. The point of a pre-order is to give the buyer more value per dollar in order to get money RIGHT THEN. So the 20-40$ packs just barely breaking even is not actually fulfilling that.

The point of a pre-order is that the content has already been made. The cost of production is there. Whether you spend $20 or $80 is up to you - but the reason they package such a good deal into the $80 bracket is to give you incentive to spend more money on that package.

The cost of the package is flat. Whether you buy the $20 or the $80 package - it's the same cost. So, they are going to try and make the $80 bracket something that is hard to turn down. They can be thought of as 'losing potential revenue' when someone decides to buy anything smaller than the Overlord pack.

[Ransack]

Quote

Why In God's Name Would You Fund Phoenix?

In simple terms, $80 to me is less than a Friday night out drinking. It's less then I spend on carfare to get to work for a week. It's not much in the grand scheme of things and isn't going to hurt my wallet too much.

They appealed to my inner geek, I get to be a fake Grayson Carlye! I will have hero mech for every weight class. If they ever get their **** together, this game could have a lot of endurance, so I am hoping that they do.

They need cash for something. I hope they get enough, because if this game fails, Hawken just doesn't do it for me.

[Zagum]

Ask yourself this question. Why should I fund this project when we have:

1. Been Lied to multiple times
2. Witnessed Deadlines missed
3. Lacked information released about features during Founders Package
4. Learned PGI does not have their own graphics engine.
5. Seen Lack of man power given to complete this project
6. Been given pretty colors, flags and statues for quick cash grabs
7. Not seen clan wars in specific detail
8. No in game clan support
9. Learned no apparent schedule will be met.
10. Features are still not incorporated into the game and only a promise given.

I could think of more.

How about PGI tells us how much money they plan to invest THEMSELVES TO FINISH THIS GAME???

[Mechteric]

Because Battlemaster

[PhoenixFire55]

Huge, on 30 June 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Vote with your wallets mech warriors. For the good of MWO do not allow them to continue this disgusting and shady means of profiting. In the long run it will only means disaster for the game we love so dearly.

Well said man, all of it. I'm happy I'm not the only one who still remembers their promises like no-cash-only-items-ever or no-3PV-ever. And they throw us founders such a nice bone ... a unique and exclusive cockpit item! Really? ... So what happened to there will be no equivalents of founders mechs? And how about you add same 10% loyalty whatever bonus to founders mechs as well?

[Multitallented]

Huge, on 30 June 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Same reason as you.

Love.

I love MWO. I am a few days away from Mastering every single mech chassis. I've tried every configuration, every mech, every playstyle that comes across my face. I love the modular damage. I adore being rewarding for scanning my enemy. Determining the most likely weak points. And getting faster kilsl for noticing this particular mech is running an XL engine. Or I can cleave their damage potential by 80% by targeting the right torso rather then taking more incoming and targeting the core. I love the one life per match. I relish using my team and luring tactics to punish overly eager enemies. Or the misery of being caught in an LRM kill box.

I've spend hundreds of hours in the mechs bay and smurfy. Theorizing and customizing and experimenting. Hours a day on average playing MWO when I can manage it.

I love MWO.

That being said I also recognize when love for the game can actually impede its progress. Like over feeding a gluttonous goldfish. You as the consumer. No much how much you might like the product. Must look at the transaction critically. Logically. At some point all you're doing is gorging PGI in money while most of it is not even helping further MWO. Those who actually like this game and want there to be a reliable future must make demands for fair compensation and responsibility for promises. There must be a measure of accountability when you give them this much money during what they are still calling A BETA!

Love the game but don't let that same love ruin it.

[Riptor]

I find the theory that if MWO "succeeds" that there will be a new mechwarrior singleplayer game amusing.

PGI cant even reliably handle their self appointed deadlines in this free to play game, meaning they are seriously lacking manpower.

They couldnt make a singleplayer game right now or in the future even if they wanted to. Not only that but they are holding the license at the moment, no one else can make a Mechwarrior title right now but them.

So no.. even if MWO is successfull we wont see a full fleshed out stand alone MW 5 in the next 5 to 10 years anyways.

[Skeggo]

Hiyooo
Good read. Sad to hear they are putting 3rd pov in training grounds. Sounds like they are trying to slide it in for a gradual acceptance. Remember when they said it would not be in game and that was one of the major selling points for me. If it ever goes "live" i will probably stop playing/funding this game. They might want to look up Star Wars Galaxies and Combat Upgrade to see results of not listening to players. Overall they are doing a good job and still enjoy dropping in with my lancemates.

[Skoaljaw]

I bought the Overlord package because:

1. I do want to support PGI's MWO team to keep this game going. (I understand that $ will go to other PGI titles but it should be secondary to MWO hopefully. As far as salaries are concerned, people gotta eat and support their families dangit! I do agree that transparency with where our $$ goes should a priority because people want to know what they have just paid for.)
2. I want to see them meet their proposed goals for the game in a timely manner
3. I missed the founders package because I had no idea this game was even around.
4. I like the idea of staple mechs being seen more often in game. (The ones that are most prevalent in the Battletech Universe)
5. I %$*#*(@ love the Battlemaster!

[Marlowe Lecter]

I bought the phoenix package for the sole purpose of ******* off every person who insists on telling me how I should spend my own money.

Me and my buddy John Hodgman are going to go smoke some cigars that we light with $100 bills now.

[GFierce]

I support this game because working in design myself I know that it is always the last 10% of the product that is 90% of the work. Unless you work in design you would never understand this. I know they have changed some things I haven't agreed with, but in the long run they should pull off a game that is going to be a lot of fun. Even if it ends up a different game I am currently having fun in it and will continue to as long as the basic gameplay is there.

[Aim64C]

Zagum, on 02 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Ask yourself this question. Why should I fund this project when we have:

1. Been Lied to multiple times
2. Witnessed Deadlines missed
3. Lacked information released about features during Founders Package
4. Learned PGI does not have their own graphics engine.
5. Seen Lack of man power given to complete this project
6. Been given pretty colors, flags and statues for quick cash grabs
7. Not seen clan wars in specific detail
8. No in game clan support
9. Learned no apparent schedule will be met.
10. Features are still not incorporated into the game and only a promise given.

1. I'm not sure "lied to" is the best phrase. It may feel that way - and PGI can certainly improve their PR - but part of the reason we feel "lied to" is because the apparent reality of the gaming environment is changing. If the current community that was fed these promises is not proving financially viable to operate the game off of - then things that distinguish this game from other commercially successful games will be the first to go. Why? Because marketing thinks it knows more about success than it actually does.

2. Deadlines in this sort of thing are ... chaotic. The MWO development team went from a size of about ten people to a size of around forty. That's going to introduce a lot of turbulence in the development cycle as you have to, literally, build a whole new team and get everyone used to working together. Which is why they shouldn't have been so hard-up on their deadlines to begin with - and why they shouldn't have started "the real-time clock" back in December.

Deadlines should only be announced as things reach "gold" status - that means all dev work has been completed and they are in the pipeline for server and client-side updates. PGI really needs to treat this like a beta, though, and have much better communication with those who are trying to report bugs, inconsistent behavior, etc.

3. This, I cannot comment on much. The reality is that when investing in any beta - you're taking a leap of faith. Not only that the game will mature to full release, but also that your investment will be worthwhile in the end. The founders had months of time to play the game before the general public did, and they also receive bonuses to the mechs they received as part of their respective packages. One can argue the overall status of hardpoints - but it wouldn't surprise me if that whole system gets completely reworked, as it clearly doesn't seem to be working out quite like the devs had envisioned or in a way the community seems to really enjoy.

Only you can decide whether or not it was a worthwhile expense. Since I was not able to participate in the founders program - I cannot really comment on whether or not I feel it was worth it or fairly done. But the fact is - they'll always have their founders badge, mechs, and the knowledge that they were part of it from the beginning.

4. Few game companies develop their own game and graphics engines, these days. There is a lot that goes into programming rendering. It's something I've been getting more into in the past several months (I've been somewhat familiar with programming in general) - and there is just a lot to go through. Unless you are doing it for the sake of being independent, or want to do a number of things that current engines simply don't account for - it's more cost-effective to simply buy a license for an engine like Unreal, Cry, or what-have-you.

Some of the open source alternatives are pretty powerful - but still require a considerable amount of development to go along with them, and are in varying states of utility - particularly when it comes to some of the more advanced features of the new Direct X and Open GL environments.

5. Honestly, I think this one was a bit of a battle with IGP. IGP wasn't willing to fund a large development group for an unproven free-to-play game. They should have been steadily increasing their manpower from the initial 10 by about 10-15 per year, until they got up to about 40-50 in this time frame. A lot of the costs for developing a game are footed up-front, years before official announcements are made about it. That makes a game like MechWarrior - a known niche market, a bit of a gamble for IGP.

They're improving their manning - but it's going to be a while until we see the effects of that.

6. That's free-to-play gaming for you. Unless you want pay-to-win. The fact is that the Phoenix project is specifically more than pretty colors "for a quick cash grab." You can get up to 90 days of premium time, 'pseudo-founders mechs,' and eight standard variants for a damned good value. Phoenix sits outside of the microtransaction environment. The microtransactions are there to give people incentive to actually buy the tokens to begin with. Little customization items that are aesthetic, a mech bay here, a week of premium there - that's what it's set up for.

7. That ties back into #1. Until they have something they are packaging into an update - there's not much point in telling us specifics. I agree they could be a bit more open about what they are doing... but they're still probably trying to get half the features to work - and some may just be technologically infeasible at present.

8. That is well overdue. But - again - is not buying this package going to make that come about quicker or somehow force the devs to change their priorities?

Phoenix is specifically engineered to be a "founders program" for the 'official launch' of this title. It's going to cover advertising, server space rental (or purchases - but they're likely going to have to rent for local servers in places like Europe and the Asian-Pacific), and the initial hiring and wages of service admins. A lot of the stuff that is currently being juggled by the dev team -should- get shoved off onto a team dedicated to keeping the game running while the developers bust out new content.

9. This ties back into #2. It's hard to set a schedule. It's frustrating - but the closest you're going to get to a schedule is a list of priorities... which are not always based on "how important" but also on "how easy" the work is. Content/features that are rather straight-forward implementations will be given a higher priority than content/features of similar importance but a higher degree of complexity.

Which is something PGI could be a little more open on, in that regard.

10. 7-10 are, essentially, the same thing. Simply enumerated.

Quote

I could think of more.

How about PGI tells us how much money they plan to invest THEMSELVES TO FINISH THIS GAME???

Really, I think some people are a little too caught up in the PGI meta.

The question is really simple: "Do you think spending money on this game is worth it?"

If "Yes" Then "Do you think Phoenix represents a product/service worth the money asked?"

If "Yes" - then purchase.

Else: Don't purchase.

I don't care to buy many of the hero mechs (if a good one for something I pilot comes around - I'll think about it). I might buy a particularly appealing dashboard ornament if I have nothing better to do... but about the only thing I spend MC on are mech bays. I might grow a wild hair up my *** and buy a paint scheme on a particularly favored build of mine. Packages like Phoenix are about the only thing that is going to entice me to spend money on a game like this. They offer content and a very acceptable value above and beyond mere convenience or a bobble-head.

In another nine months - the picture may change. I may no longer see this game as being worth spending money on, and therefor any packages offered would not be considered for their value. Others may or may not join me in that appraisal. It's how the world works.

[ShadowSpirit]

I'm done giving this company money.

"Legendary Founder" might as well read "Legendary Sucker"

... shipped the money off to pay for other, non-profitable games and have failed to deliver on any semblance of group or faction play.

8 man is dead as dead can be and they want to implement 12 man?

Money grab pure and simple.

Now they are introducing "unseen" mechs that are no longer protected (Dougram and Crusher Joe) hoping to tap into that original group that provided funding.

If you get community warfare or even decent GROUPING mechanisms in this game (anything other than random pug crap) then I'll bite but until then thanks but no thanks.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 02 July 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[norhymes]

Huge,

RE: OP (I didn't have the time to read through the entire thread, but I wanted to comment on this a bit).

I really, really agree with your sentiments here. I would love to see this game succeed and will probably toss the $80 PGI's way anyhow, but that doesn't mean I really have to like it. I just feel as if I'm serious about playing the game with my limited amount of time in which to play, I should buy this package. Really all it comes down to.

I view this as a bit of a sale. While the dearth of MC is a concern, we do get a huge amount of chassis with which to play. Chassis we never thought would be in the game. And that is value in its own right. The packages are cheaper, and I quite like the huge amounts of premium time, but the nice thing about having MC is that you would have the freedom to spend that on the aforementioned things as you see fit. To that end, it is a greater value. You're right.

To PGI:

I'd like to believe that the game is moving toward completion at a decent clip. Paul's post on weapons today is uplifting; I'd love to see more kickass stuff come through the pipelines as well (like all these unseen).

But, please PGI: I realize your hands are tied in certain things and some of the decisions being made probably are coming from publisher decisions, but we need a bigger, better game to get our community (SG) fully and 100% involved. Not to mention other long established organizations that will provide you with a great deal of income for years to come. These are customers you cannot afford to lose. The hop in hop out players may comprise much of your player base, but they do not pay for the game as we do.

There is some value in these packages you set up, but Huge has a point. Perhaps include us in developing packages like this in the future? Empower us a bit more. We feel slighted.