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Why The Frankenmech Will Always Suck, Always.


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Poll: Do you Franken? (142 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you pilot a Frankenmech (other than goofing around)?

  1. Never, they are absolutely terrible. (22 votes [15.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.49%

  2. Rarely. (33 votes [23.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.24%

  3. Yes, what's wrong with them? (33 votes [23.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.24%

  4. Yes, they awesome! Why optimize? (24 votes [16.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.90%

  5. What is a Frankenmech? (22 votes [15.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.49%

  6. Other (Explain) (8 votes [5.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.63%

When you encounter a Frankenmech, do you..

  1. Laugh (19 votes [13.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.38%

  2. Cry (1 votes [0.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.70%

  3. Both (22 votes [15.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.49%

  4. Neither (100 votes [70.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.42%

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#1 Victor Morson

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:03 PM

A lot of people around here don't understand why "Franken" builds are terrible, or claim things ridiculous like "It's the pilot not the 'mech" in defense of them. Likewise, lots of veterans mock Frankenmechs, myself included - but usually stop with why at "It's terrible."

This post is to explain the reasons why that, no, your Frankenmech will always, positively be inferior to a good build. It's really boils down to one word:

SYNERGY

Synergy is everything with weapons. What this means, is weapon configurations that go well together. The easiest way to achieve synergy is through boating multiples of the same weapon - i.e. if you are using 4 Medium Lasers, they will always work well together because they are identical.

This gets trickier when we talk about a couple things, including bracketed weapons and well matched weapons.

There's a number of reasons for weapons to synergize well:

- Velocity. The first big one. This is one of the major reasons why running a single AC/5 mixed in with lasers or missiles is terrible. If the pilot fires all of this weapons at the enemy that are in range, he'll have the AC/5 (moving very slowly at an abysmal 1,300) that he has to lead, missiles that he needs to lead even more, and lasers that need no lead time. This is likely to result in a mess of unfocused damage, and to poorly exploit limited engagement time.

- Bracketing. Sometimes weapons aren't very effective synergy with a 'mechs primary guns, but can still work on a design anyway. For example, having two medium lasers on a 2 PPC, 1 Gauss 'mech works well, as up close, the pilot can go from one group (the PPCs) to the other (The Medium Lasers) as the engagement range changes, and also use the mediums for follow up damage. Just due to heat alone, the mediums are purely situational, but blend very well with the build anyway.

- No risk weapons. Currently this only applies to Streaks, and is the chief reason you will see them on most Highlander PPC/Gauss snipers. As they will not fire if they don't have lock, and will track to the target regardless of body location, and thus you can add them to a 3rd weapon group. While they aren't likely to help your PPC/Gauss meta any, in an in fight, they are a weapon you can break out with little to no downsides. They don't even require you to stop leading/doing what you are doing with your primary weapons, and merely offer augment damage.

- High Heat / Low Heat. As ballistics cause a lot of heat in MW:O, the only weapon that falls into this category is the Gauss. Machine Guns would too, if they were made useful. At a glance, the Gauss looks like a poor ally of the PPC, firing at an insanely slow 1,200 for a long range weapon. However what pushes it over the edge here is that since it causes no heat, it can be combined with very high heat weapons at no cost. Sure some of the damage will get scattered at range unless you micromanage your fire, but it's "free" (other than ammo) and does not risk the 'mechs survival to do so. This also provides a reliable weapon system that can always do damage, even if other weapons would shut you down.

- ROF Sync. One of the main reasons I always shake my head when encountering a medium running a single AC/2 or AC/5 is this: These weapons require you to stay "on target", due to their high-ROF nature. This is at odds with other weapons, like the way too popular PPC, allows for high damage and then several seconds where you can go into "evasive mode" and try to spread incoming damage over your body.

You generally want one kind of gun, or the other. By running a single light AC with other, heavier and slower weapons, you end up sacrificing a ton of survivability for a single gun in your load out. Outside of something like an AC/20, this is unquestionably not worth it.

---

Some examples (in the current meta - I do not endorse these specific configs, and wish more weapons synergized well with others. The main reason the PPC is so goodis it's 2000 travel time that makes it work well with everything.

Good
2 Large lasers, 3 Medium Lasers

Being all from the beam family, you can merely bracket your groups and these would combine damage well.

Bad
1 AC/20, 2 Large Lasers

The Large Lasers require 1 second of discharge time with no lead - the AC/20 requires lead time. While you could fire one, then the other, to try to compensate this increases the chance of hitting multiple components and also slowing your overall damage when you have a brief exposure window on the target. i.e. how much you can do before they can get to cover.

Good
3 UAC/5, 3 Medium Lasers

This popular config on the Ilya works well because the UACs synergize very well with each other in a rapid fire environment, and inside of medium laser range, you won't need to lead much allowing you to just fire the medium lasers along with the Ultra when necessary.

Bad
1 AC/5, 2 SRM6, 1 Medium Laser

The AC/5 travels far faster than any other weapons, while still having a lackluster velocity - it is almost impossible to land it in the same location as the SRM6s at the SRM6's maximum range. It's high required ROF means you have to stay facing a target, while your other weapons do not require it - a huge price to pay for a single gun. The medium laser is the odd man out, and cannot be effectively used in any kind of alpha or major group.

Good
1 Gauss Rifle, 4 Streak/2s

This setup would work well because, regardless of who you are aiming at, it will be close enough to gain Streak lock up close and provide you with guaranteed hit firepower without changing how you operate the 'mech.

Bad
1 AC/10, 2 SRM4, 1 LRM5

The AC/10 and SRMs are drastically mismatched for lead times, and are not likely to work well with each other at all. Many people take the LRM as a "psychological tactic" but it only works on poor players, requires a ton of ammo to run a very small gun, and it will likely be completely destroyed by AMS before reaching any targets.

---

I could really do this all day but I think you get my point. Most of those "BAD" builds are ones I've actually run across, by the way; the good builds are more example weapons, short of the Ilya mention.

The bottom line: If your weapons don't blend together, you are going to cause a mess of limited damage and missed shots, no matter how good you are. It will drastically lower your ability to deal meaningful damage, even if you get high damage numbers. A guy who showers a 'mech and takes all his armor off in every location will have a higher score than someone who cores out their CT, but the person who cored out the CT is the better pilot.

This isn't something that can be overcome, if you are facing someone of equal skill in a better 'mech. This again isn't just about boating, either - it's my strong belief that more weapons should work better together, and that velocity issues are one of the bigger problems with some classes.

EDIT: I addressed this in a post right off the bad, complaining about boating. Again, this is about synergy, not boating. Boating is the easiest way to obtain synergy, but the more guns that work well with each other (similar characteristics as described above), the more diverse you can make an effective build.

So really encouraging PGI to make more weapons synergize well is a good way to get rid of boating without forced "penalties" in the end. This is more a breakdown of why 'mechs that lack weapon synergy are doomed to be inferior.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 11:22 PM.


#2 xenoglyph

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

I don't like your posts.

#3 PanzerMagier

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:08 PM

what dull thread. BT is made of mechs with various weapons. Boating and specializing should be discouraged and penalized, but allowed. I didn't come here to play "let's all play one **** type mech and weapon warrior online".

#4 Pandamcpanda

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:09 PM

how is 1 ac 20, 2 large lasers bad, at the ranges your shooting said ac20, your lasers are going to hit there for sure lol

#5 Victor Morson

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:18 PM

View PostPanzerMagier, on 30 June 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

what dull thread. BT is made of mechs with various weapons. Boating and specializing should be discouraged and penalized, but allowed. I didn't come here to play "let's all play one **** type mech and weapon warrior online".


Awesome 8Q: 3 PPCs
Awesome 9Q: 4 PPCs
Longbow 7Q: 2x LRM20, 2x LRM15, 2 Medium Lasers
Warhawk: 4 ER PPC, 1 LRM/10
Blackhawk: 12 Medium Lasers
Hunchback Swayback: 9 Medium Lasers and a Small
Jaggermech: 2 AC/5, 2 AC/2
Rifleman IIc: 4 Large Pulse, 1 Small
Devastator: 2x Gauss, 2x PPC, 4x Medium Lasers
Novacat: 4 ER Large Lasers
Novacat B: 6x LRM15 Launchers
Black Knight: 1 PPC, 2x Large, 4x Medium, 1x Small
Locust IIc: 8x ER Small 1x MPL.

I could go on. That is literally JUST the top of my head.

View PostPandamcpanda, on 30 June 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

how is 1 ac 20, 2 large lasers bad, at the ranges your shooting said ac20, your lasers are going to hit there for sure lol


You need to lead the AC/20 shot to fire it, and then you need to not lead the Laser shot, and hold it for one second.

They are utterly incompatible weapons. Mediums only do alright because of the shorter range, and faster discharge.

EDIT: PS, like I tried to explain, boating does not equal synergy. Weapons with similar range, travel time and ROF can be entirely different guns, and operate with each other.

By increasing the number of guns that have synergy, you decrease boating. It is the sole reason Gauss + PPC is lumped in as a "boat" despite having two weapons with different travel times, hard point types, and ranges is that they have good synergy.

The more weapons that have good synergy, the more freedom you have to diversify. So really, nothing to do with boating - boating is just the easiest way to insure synergy.. there should be other options.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 11:20 PM.


#6 xenoglyph

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:25 PM

May I summarize this for you?

Stop boating by making all weapons the same!

There, is that it?

#7 xenoglyph

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:29 PM

The past few patches have been the first time in a year that people couldn't be effective with mixed loadouts and a good deal of skill. Skill no longer compensates enough. It is a weapon problem, yes, but not for the reasons you think.

#8 Victor Morson

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

View Postxenoglyph, on 30 June 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

May I summarize this for you?

Stop boating by making all weapons the same!

There, is that it?


Compatible is not the same.

Some velocity buffs here, some velocity nerfs there, a few ROF changes and you have all kinds of other weapons that synergize well with each other without boating.

For example, if they fix the MPL and give it a similar refire to an AC/5, you suddenly have a very good weapon to pair with the AC/5. It doesn't make it a boat, or the same gun. In this situation, with the right changes, an AC/5 4x MPL design would be good.

I hate using that example because the AC/5 and MPL both suck individually right now, but I hope you get my point which is that in the event the MPL and AC/5 had enough matching to be a good pair, you could run a combination of the two and not be considered a Frankenmech.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 11:32 PM.


#9 The Cheese

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:32 PM

I love playing frankenmechs. They're fun, but they are pretty much always undeniably sucky. I'd love for them to be viable. Not necessarily super effective, but viable.

Pipe dreams, I know...

Edited by The Cheese, 30 June 2013 - 11:51 PM.


#10 Victor Morson

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:35 PM

View PostThe Cheese, on 30 June 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

I love playing frankenmechs. They're fun, but they are pretty much always undeniably sucky. I'd love for them to be viable. Not necessarily super effective, but viable.

Pipe dreams, I know...


The irony is that everything I'd like to see happen with weapon synergy would make a lot of the 'mechs that are classed as Frakens right now actually viable designs.

The problems only come when the weapons have wildly different characteristics, like what I outlined above. They don't need to be clones, but if they a similar in ROF, range, etc. they suddenly become a lot more competitive.

Sure you could still make bad designs, but at least you'd have more ways to "pair fast guns with fast guns, slow guns with slow guns" or "Similar range and refire in the same group" and the like in an overall build and still make it work, even with different combinations.

Frankenmechs indeed will always suck, but we could in fact see the definition of what a Frankmech is narrowing with the right shifts.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 June 2013 - 11:37 PM.


#11 Escef

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:37 PM

A Frankenmech is made of parts from different mechs. For example, the "Lich", which was built from a Warhammer's torsos mated to a Novacat's legs. The Cataphract was originally cobbled together from a Marauder body and a Shadowhawk arm, it was also a Frankenmech.

So, the first thing you should have done is define how you are using the term, as you are using it in a fashion I (and likely several posters) have not seen before.

The next thing I have to say is that divergent weapons on a mech are not necessarily bad, so long as they can be broken into distinct weapon groups. This is partly based upon the user's set-up. I use a 3-button mouse, so I abhor using mechs that would require 4+ buttons to sort out the weapon groups. So, yeah, I'll run an AC10, 2 MLs, and 2 SRM4 on a mech without thinking twice, but I wouldn't touch something like an AC2, ML, SPL, SRM6, LRM10 set-up because I'd need 5 buttons to keep the divergent weapons properly sorted.

#12 Ningyo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:42 PM

You seem to be defining a frankenmech as any mech where its weapons don't work with each other. Under this definition of course they are always bad. Now if you were defining it as a mech with 3 or more weapon systems, then it might sometimes be good (Atlas DDC: 2x(ER)PPC, Gauss(AC/20, 2xUAC/5), 3xSSRM(SRM6)). I would say even under that definition they are rarely good, but some are. So it really depends on just how you define it.

Edited by Ningyo, 30 June 2013 - 11:55 PM.


#13 One Medic Army

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:46 PM

You forgot a very important factor.

Since all the mechs right now are pretty much big slow assaults, having different projectile velocities doesn't matter very much.
It's quite easy to hit someone with a projectile while hitting them with lasers when they're only going 50kph and the size of a barn.
Different lead amounts matter more with more range, and higher target speed. If you're shooting something slow which is close up there's no problem hitting it with both an AC/20 and a pair of larges.

Which brings us to another 2 factora to consider with weapons loadout: intended target and inherent weaknesses.
Before PPCs got HSR and heat reductions they had to be matched with more reliable close ranged weapons to overcome their weaknesses in hitting light mechs and brawling.

Edited by One Medic Army, 30 June 2013 - 11:48 PM.


#14 Deathlike

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:53 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 30 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

You need to lead the AC/20 shot to fire it, and then you need to not lead the Laser shot, and hold it for one second.

They are utterly incompatible weapons. Mediums only do alright because of the shorter range, and faster discharge.


That is not the reason I would use. Leading the AC20 ahead of time, then using the lasers (I've used meds with AC20s before) is fine.

You are more likely to suffer from heat related issues by design. I've seen 2 ERPPCs+1AC20... and I don't remember it panning out on a Cataphract or an Atlas... the Atlas could do so much better to boot.

#15 Liberator

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:14 AM

Giving srm the basic homing ability they should have would help when using them with other weapon systems

#16 PEEFsmash

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:24 AM

I just want to see someone run a mech with 1 of each Autocannon and just hold the button down on all of them at once. Call it the "one man drummer-band."

chicka chika clak chika chika boom chika clack boom clack chika chika BADOOM ckika clack boom chika clak chika BADOOM

#17 Appogee

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:25 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 01 July 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

chicka chika clak chika chika boom chika clack boom clack chika chika BADOOM ckika clack boom chika clak chika BADOOM

LOL. I could see NGNG turning that into a cool rap clip.

#18 xengk

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:26 AM

So anything that doesn't boat a single weapon group is a franken mech?!
MY LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE!!!

#19 The Cheese

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

View Postxengk, on 01 July 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

So anything that doesn't boat a single weapon group is a franken mech?!
MY LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE!!!

Nah, really it's just any build with no semblance of synergy in its loadout. Any build that tries to be good at too many things and fails at all of them.

Edited by The Cheese, 01 July 2013 - 01:32 AM.


#20 mike29tw

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:44 AM

Best thread I've seen in a long time. It includes "what'a a good build", "How to make a good build", and "How to improve weapon balance" all in one.

People need to realize that while boating is a problem, forcing everyone into bad mixed builds (Frankenmech, in OP's term) is not a solution.

View PostEscef, on 30 June 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

A Frankenmech is made of parts from different mechs. For example, the "Lich", which was built from a Warhammer's torsos mated to a Novacat's legs. The Cataphract was originally cobbled together from a Marauder body and a Shadowhawk arm, it was also a Frankenmech.

So, the first thing you should have done is define how you are using the term, as you are using it in a fashion I (and likely several posters) have not seen before.

The next thing I have to say is that divergent weapons on a mech are not necessarily bad, so long as they can be broken into distinct weapon groups. This is partly based upon the user's set-up. I use a 3-button mouse, so I abhor using mechs that would require 4+ buttons to sort out the weapon groups. So, yeah, I'll run an AC10, 2 MLs, and 2 SRM4 on a mech without thinking twice, but I wouldn't touch something like an AC2, ML, SPL, SRM6, LRM10 set-up because I'd need 5 buttons to keep the divergent weapons properly sorted.


Given similar weight class and similar skill, if one mech devote all its tonnage to weapons that are inside 270m range bracket, it's guaranteed to be superior in close range than someone fitting weapons of all ranges.





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