150 replies to this topic

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 01 July 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

People need to realize that while boating is a problem, forcing everyone into bad mixed builds (Frankenmech, in OP's term) is not a solution.



Given similar weight class and similar skill, if one mech devote all its tonnage to weapons that are inside 270m range bracket, it's guaranteed to be superior in close range than someone fitting weapons of all ranges.

So, you say that boating is a problem, then turn around and all but come out and say that boating is effective. So, in other words, being effective is a problem?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Escef, on 01 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

So, you say that boating is a problem, then turn around and all but come out and say that boating is effective. So, in other words, being effective is a problem?

In terms of this game, yes it would appear that is the community perception.

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 01 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

So, you say that boating is a problem, then turn around and all but come out and say that boating is effective. So, in other words, being effective is a problem?

What part of my post mentioned that boating is effective? Being a dedicated brawler automatically makes me a boat?

[PanzerMagier]

Victor Morson, on 30 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Awesome 8Q: 3 PPCs
Awesome 9Q: 4 PPCs
Longbow 7Q: 2x LRM20, 2x LRM15, 2 Medium Lasers
Warhawk: 4 ER PPC, 1 LRM/10
Blackhawk: 12 Medium Lasers
Hunchback Swayback: 9 Medium Lasers and a Small
Jaggermech: 2 AC/5, 2 AC/2
Rifleman IIc: 4 Large Pulse, 1 Small
Devastator: 2x Gauss, 2x PPC, 4x Medium Lasers
Novacat: 4 ER Large Lasers
Novacat B: 6x LRM15 Launchers
Black Knight: 1 PPC, 2x Large, 4x Medium, 1x Small
Locust IIc: 8x ER Small 1x MPL.

You realize nearly all the mechs you've mentioned aren't in this game and probably will not be implemented? Even the ones you've mentioned are the MINORITY. Are you saying that Mechwarrior is defined by the minority?

As I recall, all the popular mechs, the atlas for one, carries a wide variety of weapons. There's also the Orion, cataphract, Centurion, dragon, victor, highlander, even the raven... Many mechs with at least more than 2 different types of weapons on them. This list goes on, but I'm sure I don't have to continue. I've made my point.

Please, troll, crawl back under your filthy bridge.

Edited by PanzerMagier, 01 July 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[Schrottfrosch]

I like how exposition time is being pointed out - large damage weapons (AC/20, PPC, Gauss) allow for a minimum of exposition while deliviering relyable good damage to the target - this combined with the factor, that mostly only huge, heavily armored mechs can wield them, nicely shows that smaller weapon systems, that need to be held on the target, and lightly armored mechs, that cannot go for huge damage, big weapons, and are stuck with the smaller ones are basically terrible.

This leaves only a few valid builds/mechs...

[Adridos]

Victor Morson, on 30 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Awesome 8Q: 3 PPCs
Awesome 9Q: 4 PPCs
Longbow 7Q: 2x LRM20, 2x LRM15, 2 Medium Lasers
Warhawk: 4 ER PPC, 1 LRM/10
Blackhawk: 12 Medium Lasers
Hunchback Swayback: 9 Medium Lasers and a Small
Jaggermech: 2 AC/5, 2 AC/2
Rifleman IIc: 4 Large Pulse, 1 Small
Devastator: 2x Gauss, 2x PPC, 4x Medium Lasers
Novacat: 4 ER Large Lasers
Novacat B: 6x LRM15 Launchers
Black Knight: 1 PPC, 2x Large, 4x Medium, 1x Small
Locust IIc: 8x ER Small 1x MPL.

I could go on. That is literally JUST the top of my head.

You do realise that just even MW:O has enough balanced mechs that we could easily outweight your silly selection 5:1? Let alone all the mechs in Battletech.... that's because boating simply sucks in TT for which the mechs are designed.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 01 July 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

What part of my post mentioned that boating is effective? Being a dedicated brawler automatically makes me a boat?

You mentioned uniformity of range, which is part of boating. A big part. The old 36cat had that, it boated SRMs. Boating means uniformity of range, a bunch of weapons that all perform the same, all good at the same ranges, etc.

I don't have a problem with boating. It works. It's effective. If you want a variety of weapons on your machine, hey, great. I like being able to engage at any range and having a little variety on my mech. Boating is a little boring to me. But I'm not going to sit here and tell people to NOT do something that works.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Or instead they could try and follow one simple goal: Longer, slower fights.

If there is more time to fire your weapons, if there are stimuli to not fire the ac/20 because you know this will overheat your mech and instead fire those two medium lasers, then this is viable again.

You want a quick shooter? One-shot-kill-thrill? There are SO many fps out there, go play one of them. For MWO to survive it needs to offer something special. Battles instead of shootouts. Will it survive in the market when it's all the same fps like half a dozen other games?


PS: I played three Cataphracts to Elite and I can only agree that Frankenmechs, in the current meta, are more or less doomed. I usually had to combine 3 or 4 different weapons in as many weapon groups and it was a pain in the ***. On the other side of the map, a 4 ppc Stalker simply hit one button and after two salvos I was more or less history.

The question is: Is this okay? I'm talking to PGI here. Is this how you intend this game to play? The more simpler the boats the more effective the play. And we're down at the level of a generic fps with big robots.

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 01 July 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Good post. It will probably not be understood by those that need to understand it, but anyway.

Ways to improve "Frankenmechs"/mixed loadouts/versatile loadouts.

• Standardize cycle times.
  
• Standardize weapon velocities
  
• Standardize beam durations (beam duration is part of cycle time, of course. But there is a benefit to having a small beam duration, but it's lost if you are forced to mix it with a weapon with a longer beam duration. It's a minor issue).

Standardizing doesn't have to mean all weapons have exactly the same values. You just need to be sure there are very few categories, and ideally, there is some synergy even between weapons in different categories. For example, cycle times:

• Category Fast: 1 second (or maybe 1.25 seconds) (Small laser, Small Pulse Laser, AC/2?)
  
• Category Medium: 2 seconds (or maybe 2.5 seconds) (Medium Pulse Laser, Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, LBX-10, AC/10?)
  
• Category Slow: 4 seconds (or maybe 5 seconds) (Medium Laser, (ER) Large Laser, AC/20, (ER) PPC, Gauss, (S)SRM, LRM?)

Each higher category is multiple of the next higher. This means you can build a mech that has a weapon rotation of [all weapons] [all fast weapons] [all slow and fast weapons] [all fast weapons] [all weapons].

Similar with beam durations:

• Short: 0.5 seconds (pulse lasers and ER Large Laser?)
  
• Long: 1 second (standard lasers?)

Similar with velocity:

• Very Slow: 150 (LRM)
  
• Slow: 400 (SRM, SSRM, NARC)
  
• Medium: 1200 (Gauss, AC/20, AC/10)
  
• Fast: 2000 (PPC, AC/5, AC/2, LBX-10)

(The Very Slow category only contains LRMs, which don't need to synergy in terms of velocity with other weapons, since you don't lead them. I raised the velocity of a lot of weapons)


--

And a potential further step
4) Remove group fire and enforce cooldowns between each shot. (Or rather, change group fire to fire all weapons with a short delay between each other automatically, while chain-fire fires only one per key press, but still observes the delay).
This will remove the final advantage pure boats would have - by forcing people to split up shots, weapons that are 100 % identical in every regard still need to be just as spaced out as mixed weapon loadouts.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 July 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[The Cheese]

Escef, on 01 July 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

You mentioned uniformity of range, which is part of boating. A big part.

Not entirely correct. Boating is carrying a very large number of one kind of weapon, or multiple types of very similar function. Carrying an AC/20, a few med lasers and a couple of SRM packs wouldn't be considered boating by anyone's standards.

Likewise, nobody would claim 'boat' on a mech carrying an ERPPC and a couple of AC/2s.

Edited by The Cheese, 01 July 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[xengk]

The Cheese, on 01 July 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Nah, really it's just any build with no semblance of synergy in its loadout. Any build that tries to be good at too many things and fails at all of them.

According to op, any mech that have weapons that do not share similar range/ROF/travel speed/etc is a franken mech.
I have been piloting franken mech since day 1!
I must hide my hunchback among the Igors/Ygors in shame!

Personally, I prefer a franken mech that can handle different range and encounter.

[Sigismund]

Boating has been the problem with every Mechwarrior game since its creation. The main problem how damage always converges on the CT, if a build can't core a mech as easy and quickly as possible at your preferred range then it's not powerful enough. Either they make radically different weapons work together while still feeling different or they finally remove pinpoint convergence and accuracy for weapons on separate sides of a mech.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Sigismund, on 01 July 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Boating has been the problem with every Mechwarrior game since its creation. The main problem how damage always converges on the CT, if a build can't core a mech as easy and quickly as possible at your preferred range then it's not powerful enough. Either they make radically different weapons work together while still feeling different or they finally remove pinpoint convergence and accuracy for weapons on separate sides of a mech.

I agree that boating can never be fully stopped, nor should they try to force it. How could they, without getting rid of customization?

But it can be discouraged with heat penalties, I mean real heat-penalties. It can be limited with sized hardpoints. Of course an Awesome will then still run around with 3 or 4 PPCs, but it was designed to do that, is shaped like a brick-wall and must fully expose itself in order to fire them all together.

All those posts with mechs that were supposed to be boats...yes, I get it. That LRM-monster, isn't that mech as big as a mountain and slow as a slug? Because, you see, the Stalker can already do the same and it isn't as big or as slow. It was not designed to be a Longbow. The Longbow was designed to be a Longbow! -.-

I know that will see this as limitations, but for me this would be shaping the game into a MechWarrior title.

[Max Liao]

As long as there is nearly unfettered customization you will always see boats. Exactly as the OP stated, firing the same type of weapon synergizes your combat and makes you more effective.

How many people would really play the ShadowHawk or the Dragon with its stock 3025 design?

The only way to reduce meta and negate boating is to remove customization, which won't happen. Other features can be employed to lessen it, but the devs don't seem to be interested in that. (No, effing with heat is not an effective method.)

I hate customs. I don't allow them in tabletop or MegaMek, and only played in tournaments that didn't allow them. But as long as MWO encourages custom designs then I will customize and play to the meta in order to win for my team and faction - no matter how dirty it makes me feel.

[Karazyr]

You realise you can group the weapons right? you dont have to alpha.

for exmaple 2xLL and 1xac20

fire LL first then the ac 20, god forbid it requires a little thought to do.

[MustrumRidcully]

GODzillaGSPB, on 01 July 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

I agree that boating can never be fully stopped, nor should they try to force it. How could they, without getting rid of customization?

But it can be discouraged with heat penalties, I mean real heat-penalties. It can be limited with sized hardpoints. Of course an Awesome will then still run around with 3 or 4 PPCs, but it was designed to do that, is shaped like a brick-wall and must fully expose itself in order to fire them all together.

All those posts with mechs that were supposed to be boats...yes, I get it. That LRM-monster, isn't that mech as big as a mountain and slow as a slug? Because, you see, the Stalker can already do the same and it isn't as big or as slow. It was not designed to be a Longbow. The Longbow was designed to be a Longbow! -.-

I know that will see this as limitations, but for me this would be shaping the game into a MechWarrior title.

As much as I think the heat system is screwed and is responsible for several imbalances in this game...

Heat is primarily a limiter for energy weapon boating. It works less well for ballistics, with the most extreme example being the Gauss Rifle.

[Lacewing]

Boating one weapon or using max. 2 weapon groups is just an easy way to go. To use more then 4 groups effectively you have to spend some time with that build and it's not easy to get used to it. It's hard to learn and hard to master but when you get used to it, you'll get a flexible 'mech able to deal with every situation.

+it's more fun to play.

[MustrumRidcully]

Derrpy, on 01 July 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

You realise you can group the weapons right? you dont have to alpha.

for exmaple 2xLL and 1xac20

fire LL first then the ac 20, god forbid it requires a little thought to do.

You miss the point.

Spreading out your shots over time is a disadvantage. You can do it, but that doesn't mean it's advantageous to do so. You're better off building an alpha-capable mech.

Imagine we had 6 different 7 ton weapons that deal 10 damage and 8 heat per shot. 5 of them would have a different projectile speed. (let' say the slower ones get a range boost to compensate), 2 of them are hit-scan but with (differing) beam durations (the one with the longer duration has a better range) (ranges would probably vary between 500 to 700m). If you fight a non-stationary target, yoh have to lead. If you equip these 6 different weapons, you would need a seperate lead for each of the non-hit scan weapons, and you would hold your weapon on target for a duration for the entire team of the two beam-based weapons, losing the advantage of the shorter beam.

If you would just use one variant of these weapon 6 times, you could all fire them all neatly in a single shot, all hit the same spot, you don't waste any beam duration, and you have a lot of time between shots to torso twist or move into cover.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 July 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[The Cheese]

Derrpy, on 01 July 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

You realise you can group the weapons right? you dont have to alpha.

for exmaple 2xLL and 1xac20

fire LL first then the ac 20, god forbid it requires a little thought to do.

High damage pinpoint is the name of the game. If you can't put all that damage in one place, you're gonna get mauled by someone who can.

Putting it all in one place is much easier when the impact time of all of your weapons is very close to each other, which is something LL and AC/20 don't do very well together.

If You absolutely HAD to use LL and AC/20 together, you'd fire the AC first and watch where it hits, then try to follow it up on the same panel with the lasers. With the AC, you only get one chance to put it where you want, whereas you've got a good half second to line up those beams on the panel you're after without wasting too much damage.

Edited by The Cheese, 01 July 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Deadmeat313]

Firstly, I'm sensing a lot of antagonism to the OP here that I don't think is warranted.

He didn't come across as "pro boating" - though obviously boating a single weapon type is the simplest and neatest way to find Synergy. We all know the boating arguments now, the main one being that YES boats exist in canon - but NO they couldn't pop all 6 of their lasers straight into your right torso.

Boat loadouts are valid builds, but mixed weapon loadouts can also be valid IF the weapons can be combined efectively. I agree! And I think mixed weapon builds are more fun.

The Moral: Do mixed weapon builds, but do them right.

That said, I'm determined to try the basic SHD-2H Shadow Hawk at least once, just to see how the enemy like that 1 AC5, 1 LRM5, 1 Med Laser and 1 SRM2 pain. "Come at me guys - one at a time or all at once, the result will be the same".