150 replies to this topic

[Kymlaar]

Your post, while providing interesting information for thought, contains a horribly designed poll that mostly people who agree with you will vote on. Your poll is basically, "I agree with you, they're bad," "yes, but explain to me your wise ways," and "I use them because I'm dumb."

Edited by Kymlaar, 01 July 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Kymlaar, on 01 July 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Your post, while providing interesting information for thought, contains a horribly designed poll that mostly people who agree with you will vote on. Your poll is basically, "I agree with you, they're bad," "yes, but explain to me your wise ways," and "I use them because I'm dumb."

To be fair, those are pretty much the options. Sometimes good players will take bad builds but they do so knowingly.

There's not really room to make a case for Frakenmechs as equally capable. This isn't a subjective thing, it's an objectively true, regardless if you wish it were or not.

The side saying Frankens suck provide tons of reasoning, logic, group consensus of the vast majority of upper tier players, etc. The side saying Frankens are usable have offered "I play my Franken and I'm fine!! They work great!" without taking into account their opponents build quality whatsoever, and also without realizing that people using good builds escape the lowest ELO fast, even if they're only OK pilots, so you are left facing only like minded people most of the time.

This whole thing really reminds me of the global warming "debate" where scientists provide a ton of, well, research data that provides a clear picture and then a bunch of angry people who haven't even read the data go "Nuh-uh, it totally gets cold here in the winter, LOL!"

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 July 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Jman5]

PEEFsmash, on 01 July 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

I just want to see someone run a mech with 1 of each Autocannon and just hold the button down on all of them at once. Call it the "one man drummer-band."

chicka chika clak chika chika boom chika clack boom clack chika chika BADOOM ckika clack boom chika clak chika BADOOM

Prepare to meet your maker! The ultimate in synergistic design!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fd2c6c7d3d4101a

Edited by Jman5, 01 July 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Sybreed]

Hi,

I'm a veteran player.

I like frankenmechs, because they're fun and require a higher sense of tactics to use well.

I care little about what is optimized and what is not, I want to have fun playing the game. Having 2-3 weapon groups makes thing too easy for me, therefore less fun. Why play a game if there's no challenge I ask you?

The fun is all in the challenge, not in the victory. Although, a victory gained through facing and overcoming a challenge is the best feeling in the world.

Players like you kill that feeling, all the time, and I'd like you to stop posting "veterans think" etc etc as you do not know what veterans think.

You know what your clanmates think, that's about it.

[soarra]

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Hi,

I'm a veteran player.

I like frankenmechs, because they're fun and require a higher sense of tactics to use well.

I care little about what is optimized and what is not, I want to have fun playing the game. Having 2-3 weapon groups makes thing too easy for me, therefore less fun. Why play a game if there's no challenge I ask you?

The fun is all in the challenge, not in the victory. Although, a victory gained through facing and overcoming a challenge is the best feeling in the world.

Players like you kill that feeling, all the time, and I'd like you to stop posting "veterans think" etc etc as you do not know what veterans think.

You know what your clanmates think, that's about it.

^ This is a guy i can respect. Not the 38ppc Super stalker that pushes 1 button and kills new pilots, and posts his K.D.R everywhere

Edited by soarra, 01 July 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Throat Punch]

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Hi,

I'm a veteran player.

I like frankenmechs, because they're fun and require a higher sense of tactics to use well.

I care little about what is optimized and what is not, I want to have fun playing the game. Having 2-3 weapon groups makes thing too easy for me, therefore less fun. Why play a game if there's no challenge I ask you?

The fun is all in the challenge, not in the victory. Although, a victory gained through facing and overcoming a challenge is the best feeling in the world.

Players like you kill that feeling, all the time, and I'd like you to stop posting "veterans think" etc etc as you do not know what veterans think.

You know what your clanmates think, that's about it.

OMG I love you! I couldn't have said that better. I'm a veteran player as well, as well as a long long time TT player. I love using "Frankenbuilds" because I sometimes like to emulate a build i used to win a TT tourney or to simply play something a little bit different then the norm. It doesn't mean its a bad build or that I'm a bad player. It just means that what I find to be good (and fun) to be different then someone else. If I wanted to spreadsheet out the exact dps build I needed to have the most optimal firepower and rotation I'd still be playing WoW or Eve. I play MWO because its a real time version of my favorite TT game and I treat it as such. To hell with what someone else thinks of my build. If it works for me, i do damage and get kills I'm happy. I'm even happier now if I get to kill what Victor considers an "optimal build".

[Victor Morson]

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

I like frankenmechs, because they're fun and require a higher sense of tactics to use well.

Like I said, some people chose to acknowledge they are awful but play them anyway. That's fine, as they are at least not causing white noise in the feedback.

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

I care little about what is optimized and what is not, I want to have fun playing the game. Having 2-3 weapon groups makes thing too easy for me, therefore less fun. Why play a game if there's no challenge I ask you?

While the current meta is boring, I can tell you for sure that it is far more challenging than you might think. I still think it's terrible meta, but "easy wins" is not part of it, because the minute you start using good designs you start facing good designs, and then you're in trouble.

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

The fun is all in the challenge, not in the victory. Although, a victory gained through facing and overcoming a challenge is the best feeling in the world.

Players like you kill that feeling, all the time, and I'd like you to stop posting "veterans think" etc etc as you do not know what veterans think.

You know what your clanmates think, that's about it.

If you think my opinions are based entirely on my unit, you haven't been reading many of my posts. I talk to a LOT of upper-tier players in literally dozens of units and the general consensus is entirely the same.

Again, not once have I said in this thread "You are a bad person for playing a Frakenmech." Not once.

My issue comes from when someone attempts to defend Frakenmechs as competitive against competitive 'mechs, which they are absolutely not.

And finally, the people I'm talking about with weapon balance? Yeah, they want to help PUGs as much as anybody. That's what I find funniest about Fraken pilots leaping into this thread and screaming for blood, because the whole time I've been saying "Let's see more worthwhile weapons. Let's see more weapons meant to work in groups. Balance is awful right now!"

I'd LIKE these LPL-LBX contraptions people keep posting to work. I'd LIKE these ER Large snipers to work. Everyone that people are hating on for being "elitist" want the weapons fixed too.

Let me boil this down: This is frustrating because, effectively, we are on your side but if people keep trying to defend Frankenmechs as viable alternatives, the devs will never get the message and they never will be viable alternatives. The first step to better more diverse builds is admitting it, right now, does not work at all.

Frakens will always exist and always be bad, as some weapons just aren't ever going to be good in pairs. Ever. But if you'd listen to the message I'm trying to convey, I would like a world where far far less 'mechs are considered terrible builds because there are so many good weapons and combinations of weapons, we can experiment.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 July 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Holy Frijoles, do you people still think this thread is about PPC Stalkers?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 July 2013 - 07:58 PM.
performed mild deoffensification

[soarra]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Jesus Christ, do you people still think this thread is about PPC Stalkers?

well you keep saying the current meta, which is ppc's. so year

[Throat Punch]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Jesus Christ, do you people still think this thread is about PPC Stalkers?

You mean it isn't?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Hi,

I'm a veteran player.

I like frankenmechs, because they're fun and require a higher sense of tactics to use well.

I care little about what is optimized and what is not, I want to have fun playing the game. Having 2-3 weapon groups makes thing too easy for me, therefore less fun. Why play a game if there's no challenge I ask you?

The fun is all in the challenge, not in the victory. Although, a victory gained through facing and overcoming a challenge is the best feeling in the world.

Players like you kill that feeling, all the time, and I'd like you to stop posting "veterans think" etc etc as you do not know what veterans think.

You know what your clanmates think, that's about it.

You know me Sybreed, and what I talk about.

I'm definitely not a proponent of boating.

But when you ignore the poll and actually read Victor's post he is right on target. He's no advocating for it to stay this way, he's just outlining what the game is.

Here it is. DUE too; perfect instant convergence, the hardpoint system and the heat system, along with the way weapons are currently designed, there are good combinations and bad ones.

You can do whatever you want and succeed in whatever you play.

But if you want to be the absolutely best player, you would want to use only certain combinations of weapons.

The obvious being PPC's.

If you take 2 people who are of equal skill, and one plays in a mech with synergy and the other just puts random weapons into his mech with no thought to lead times/projectile velocity/burn times/etc. The latter will lose.

It's not good, it's not fun, but it is the way it is.

What we should be working towards (and everyone obviously has different views of how to do so) is fixing it.

I DON'T agree with Victor that every weapon needs to be upgraded (because we need LESS damage not more), but he's right about the current state of mech weapon synergies.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 01 July 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Also as a separate thing. Can I throw a big ol **** you (it's duck with an f at the beginning) to the people who host this board and decided on whatever board software they use.

IT BLOWS. These are by far the worst forums I visit and I visit a lot of them.

It's no wonder you can't fix your game, you can't even get the damn message boards right.

SO DUCK WITH AN F YOU.

[Victor Morson]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

I DON'T agree with Victor that every weapon needs to be upgraded (because we need LESS damage not more), but he's right about the current state of mech weapon synergies.

This is definitely something I feel that is far more debatable, and you might see a range of opinions on and think yours is totally fine. Balancing all the guns down instead of up would be OK by me if it resulted in them reaching parity on a ton and crit basis.

Also thank you for reading the OP and understanding that while there will always be a few bad designs, my primary interest is seeing way, way more diverse stuff as competitively viable. I'd being able to experiment in Mechlab and always feel like I'm evolving in mech design - something I felt in MW4 until the day I stopped playing, no less. I'd also love to see more 'mechs have multiple roles and play styles they can pull off.

Most of all, I want all the guns to have a usable role on the battlefield, which I think benefits everyone.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Victor, I've enjoyed our debates in the past, but I hesitated to jump in on this one ... the "do it my way, or you're dumb" tone doesn't really offer any room for discussion, debate, or even arguement.

If you're not willing to listen to other opinions, then why the poll?

I'm pretty good (and consistently improving) with some builds that you would consider "terribad". In a HGN-733C, for example, I am pretty good about hitting with an AC/20 (RA), then 2x ML (RT), then 2x SRM-6 (LT) ... is it the most effective attack possible? No, but it is an effective attack for me.

We do agree on a few things, though ... matching ranges and velocities is generally a good thing ... but your approach is more simplistic than mine.

I know that as a player, I suck at consistently hitting the same component ... I'm either not patient enough, or my aim isn't fast enough. I know that because I have experimented with hundreds of different builds in my 30+ different mechs. As the game balance changes, I'll evaluate my playstyle and try different things. To me, finding the right mech for my game is more important than changing my game to match the "best mech".

If there is some magic Elo glass ceiling where only the "best" players are allowed and can only use the "best" builds to compete, then I will happily play in the middle with the masses ... I find it more fun.

[Grey Black]

Frankenmech.....



We all pilot Frankenmechs, as we simply jam different components onto the otherwise stock chassis. Any custom Mech could even be considered a frankenmech. However, the term actually refers to any mech which combines different Mech designs.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/FrankenMech

[Sybreed]

Aright,

first of all, thank you Victor and Nicholas for responding in such a respectful manner. I posted with a bit of a highborn tone and would have deserved some flak for it, you chose not to and I respect you for it (I also appreciate it hehe).

Also, it is true I did not read the entirety of Victor's post througout the thread. Mind you, I'm someone who often work 50-60 hours a week and I speed read A LOT and therefore obviously skipped meaningful content.

What you said Victor is true, frankenmechs aren't viable in a competitive sense. 5-6 months ago, frankenmechs worked, I had a 3 or 4 K/D/R with frankenbuilds (I usually keep stock weapons and use endo/dhs to increase heat dissipation + ammo, change regular lasers to pulse, etc), but since march/april, my score tanked. I knew my builds were the cause, but I chose not to upgrade them to the current meta. Yeah, I usually do not do as well as I used to, but like I said... it's what is fun for me. I have 0 fun playing the latest FOTM, I have more fun playing MY builds instead of a build forced by the meta.

In that sense, you are entirely right. Frankenmechs aren't viable and they need help. But, I also think "high elo" players aren't the ONLY source of the cure, as they often tend to only use what's best and not what's the most fun. That's why I don't think veterans and high elo alike should be the only people listened to. I also don't think the clueless noob should be the only opinion listened to. I think everyone's opinion should be taken into account, especially the guy who wants to play for fun, instead of play to win at all cost.

There was a time during CB (R&R was still in) that my stock Centurion CN-9A was really viable and I could deal 500-600 per match with it, getting 1 kill or 2. AMS wasn't as common as it is currently and I had a good enough ping to not need HSR to have my shots connect, and what was the time I had the most fun with MWO. I could play the Centurion the way it was built out of the factory, as a cavalry mech that supports its assault friendlies. I honestly miss that time, as, IMO, it was the pinnacle of fun in MWO.

edit: No need to point out that I'm favorable to a stock mechs mode

Edited by Sybreed, 01 July 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

If there is some magic Elo glass ceiling where only the "best" players are allowed and can only use the "best" builds to compete, then I will happily play in the middle with the masses ... I find it more fun.

This is the point though. This shouldn't exist.

You basically are saying "I'm purposely gimping myself, but I know in my heart of hearts that I would be better off with a synergized mech".

Which is fine, that is your decision.

But wouldn't it be better to be in a game where picking multiple weapon systems was viable?

Victor's point is....that PGI's weapon balance blows monkey nuts. And it's forcing us into a boring game.

Sybreed, on 01 July 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

first of all, thank you Victor and Nicholas for responding in such a respectful manner. I posted with a bit of a highborn tone and would have deserved some flak for it, you chose not to and I respect you for it (I also appreciate it hehe).

No worries man, most of us are on the same side generally speaking here.

I don't mind people having opinions that differ. But I prefer that we base them on what is actually said, instead of a response based on what people THINK he said.

(not necessarily pointing that at you by the way, there were many more egregious offenders in this thread).

[Victor Morson]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Victor, I've enjoyed our debates in the past, but I hesitated to jump in on this one ... the "do it my way, or you're dumb" tone doesn't really offer any room for discussion, debate, or even arguement.

If you're not willing to listen to other opinions, then why the poll?

Because there is no argument to have. I'm stating what amounts to objective fact, and people are countering with passionate, subjective opinion.

Again, I am not saying you have to play this way. I am saying that if people acknowledge the reality, however, things will change for the better and improve the game for everyone. Basically:

Good "Yeah I know Frankenmechs suck, I play the sometimes to have fun" - Harmless
Bad "No Frankenmechs are just as good there's just cheese builds!" - VERY HARMFUL FEEDBACK

The latter category is responsible for 90% of the horrendous balance changes we've had, and now nobody is happy.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm pretty good (and consistently improving) with some builds that you would consider "terribad". In a HGN-733C, for example, I am pretty good about hitting with an AC/20 (RA), then 2x ML (RT), then 2x SRM-6 (LT) ... is it the most effective attack possible? No, but it is an effective attack for me.

The thing is, right here, you're saying that you know it's an inferior build but you're playing it because you want to do something different. No problem. It's not a terrible build even, really - I'd almost call what you just described as "2nd tier meta." It'll do fine in PUGs, just like the Ultra Ilya does.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

We do agree on a few things, though ... matching ranges and velocities is generally a good thing ... but your approach is more simplistic than mine.

I know that as a player, I suck at consistently hitting the same component ... I'm either not patient enough, or my aim isn't fast enough. I know that because I have experimented with hundreds of different builds in my 30+ different mechs. As the game balance changes, I'll evaluate my playstyle and try different things. To me, finding the right mech for my game is more important than changing my game to match the "best mech".

Where I think I am most frequently misunderstood in this thread is I want you to be able to do this, and still be in something that could be "the best mech." Again while MW4 had a few very standard builds, there were no "This is the right way build, anything else is the wrong way build" situations.

Again, this advice will always apply, because like you say - synergy is important. If all the guns are worth their crit/tonnage, it's the only thing that will matter in the end, and that means LOTS of options without nerfing yourself.

Right now we're as far from that as possible, and it's one of the reasons I've been so vocal around here.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

If there is some magic Elo glass ceiling where only the "best" players are allowed and can only use the "best" builds to compete, then I will happily play in the middle with the masses ... I find it more fun.

Do a forums search for "10 matches in 10 minutes" I think it was (anyone have the link) and you'll see what happens when you get too good at the game. It is literally a guy playing match after match (with the non-combat parts fast forwarded) and they came down to: Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Jenner PPC, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss.

It was totally an unrigged environment. That's exactly what it is now and it suuuucks.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Victor's point is....that PGI's weapon balance blows monkey nuts. And it's forcing us into a boring game.

I think this might sum up every thread I've made in one line. Well done.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Victor Morson, on 01 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Do a forums search for "10 matches in 10 minutes" I think it was (anyone have the link) and you'll see what happens when you get too good at the game. It is literally a guy playing match after match (with the non-combat parts fast forwarded) and they came down to: Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss, Stalker PPC, Jenner PPC, Stalker PPC, Highlander PPC+Gauss.

It was totally an unrigged environment. That's exactly what it is now and it suuuucks.

I think this might sum up every thread I've made in one line. Well done.

That video should be required watching for everyone who posts on gameplay balance.

I don't normally bother with videos, but good lord if it didn't hit the nail on the head.

[Jaguar Prime]

I've been following this thread since it started this morning. I've read every post and the thing that I can't wrap my head around is this. People run crappy builds and are happy running crappy builds. But they complain when they die and lose to good builds. (cheese as they call it.)

When they are told that their builds are crap, they point to the anecdotal evidence of doing well in that mech. That may be true relative to who you are playing and the builds they are using. But when matched up against pilots who know how to build mechs. They resort to "The opposing pilots are running cheese builds. That's why I am losing." "Hey PGI, do something about these cheese builds." "My awesome balanced setup is losing to specialized, smart, cheese builds."

Seriously, I understand playing for fun in a crazy config that you came up with. I understand that you enjoy doing it. What I don't understand is the need to complain when you lose to configs that are just plain smarter,more efficient, and just outright better. Why should superior builds and superior tactics be nerfed because certain players want to be competitive in crap.