64 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

While I disdain the need for it, it is the best answer I have seen to address the problem. The only other problem it doesn't address is the Splatcat. That might come down to making LRMs and SRMs/SSRMs two totally different types of hardpoint though... Or removing the A1 completely.

[Hellcat420]

3rdworld, on 01 July 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Where did you come up with this? TT has no restrictions and this game has no restrictions other than same type. So please enlighten me how it is "not supposed" to be able to do this.

inb4 you say something about a tank.



Warhawk, Try again.

yes there were restrictions in tt. and on top of that, if you tried to alpha a 4 or 6 ppc mech you would explode in tt.

[Tezcatli]

I don't like the idea of severely limiting customization. But I do like the idea of providing benefits or penalties for hard points on mechs designed for a specific weapon systems or roles. Like the heat penalty system they're coming out with. But ACs need a penalty of their own. It doesn't make sense to give them more heat. They already have high tonnage, slot, and ammo.

[MustrumRidcully]

Hellcat420, on 01 July 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

yes there were restrictions in tt. and on top of that, if you tried to alpha a 4 or 6 ppc mech you would explode in tt.

There were only 3 kinds of restrictions in the table top:
1) You use stock mechs, and nothing else.
2) Use Omnimechs, don't change engine, armor type, don'tchange fixed weapons, equip whatever you want in your omnipods.
2) YOu use the construction rules, your mech cannot be overweight, nor use more crits then listed here, you need to pay the structure weight, and you need to install certain actuators. Go to town and do your worst.

Hard points are a Mechwarrior IV and MW:O invention.

And a 4 PPC mech wouldn't explode on a single alpha. In fact, only mechs that used ammunition could even explode when alpha striking.

The Awesome 9Q is a stock mech that comes with double heat sinks and 4 PPCs and works just fine.
The Warhawk uses 4 Clan ER PPCs and can alpha at least two times before overheating. (He could explode from heat, though, because he had a useless LRM-10 launcher. Just dump the ammo at the start of your mech.)

What never of these mechs really got was pinpoint accuracy.


I am not aware of any 6 PPC mechs in table top lore, but I think the construction rules would allow you to build one without eve needing to overheat on the first alpha. 20 DHS and 6 PPCs are doable on a 100 ton mech easily. ANd that would mean you gained "only" 20 heat per alpha.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[tenderloving]

TT is built around random hit locations. You have to take that into account when making comparsions of what TT allows and doesn't allow.

Keep your lore, keep your chassis and weapons, keep your fluff, but stop trying to make a modern real-time shooter match up with a turn-based game that's over 20 years old.

[tenderloving]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 July 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

You need a realistic take on the mind of a min/maxer or competitive gamer. No wishful thinking about what you'd like people to do.

The system won't stop people from taking the "best thing" but what it will do is provide a powerful balancing tool that they don't currently have. Our current system is based 100% on what PGI would like people to do, and it's not working out that great. Sometimes you have to nudge behavior, and being able to restrict weapons to certain chassis is a good way to do it that preserves future mechs' usefulness.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't think just hardpoint restrictions work.

Here is the thing, we need to think about the overall issue. Basically the end results of the problem.

Mechs die too quickly.

Yes how they die too quickly changes, but in the end that's always the issue.

So lets say we do change hardpoints.

Eventually SRM's are going to be upgraded/fixed and everyone is going to be like "Well crap, I can pop on 6 SRM 6's again and run my Catapult. And you can't really limit the Catapult's Missile Hardpoints.

Then we are all complaing about the Catapult again.

You cannot fix everything in one fashion. It's not going to be JUST fixing heat, JUST fixing hardpoints JUST fixing convergence. There is always going to be some loop hole, like Gauss for heat, SRM's for hardpoints, a mech who can load 3 weapons into the same area for convergence.

What you should be seeing is a mix.

Lower heat to half, double dissipation.

Create non-instant convergence via one of the 50 ideas on the forums. Make people work for that perfect shot.

And maybe create a more strict hardpoint system as well.

But just one of those won't fix it. It's going to be a combination.

[tenderloving]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I don't think just hardpoint restrictions work.


So lets say we do change hardpoints.

Eventually SRM's are going to be upgraded/fixed and everyone is going to be like "Well crap, I can pop on 6 SRM 6's again and run my Catapult. And you can't really limit the Catapult's Missile Hardpoints.

Then we are all complaing about the Catapult again.

You could, I don't know, restrict the Catapult's hardpoints so it could mount 2 SRM6, 2 SRM4, and 2 SRM2s. The only thing the A1 needs to be able to carry is 2 LRM15s to stick with the stock loadout. The other hardpoints were added by PGI.

[Syllogy]

Some variants should/can add overlapped hardpoints to keep some balance. For an example, see the Awesome-9M Center Torso (2 Energy Hardpoints, 2 Missile Hardpoints)

Example: Catapult-A1, change a single Missile Hardpoint to a Short Range missile slot to each ear. (2 Long Range, 1 Short Range, 3 total missile slots)

Edited by Syllogy, 01 July 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Sybreed]

Nicholas is still right though. Fast forward 6 months and let's say the annihilator or King Crab is in, we'll still have to do something about convergence.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

See, I think it starts to get stupid when we are at that point.

Might as well just stop customization.

And it still really doesn't account for what Clan mechs are supposed to be.

But whatever, stick to your notion that one fix magically makes it all alright.

i'll continue to prescribe to the idea that this game requires multiple things to not be a gank fest.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 01 July 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[TehSBGX]

Well OP the only thing I'm not agreeing with is limiting Missle hardpoints into LRM/SRM style. If MRMs ever hit your system gets borked. Missle hard points should take srm or lrm of the appropriate size, I'm all for hard point sizes but they can't be too restrictive.

[Darvaza]

Shadowsword8, on 01 July 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

People will ALWAYS Boat, regardless of the weapon used.

Because it is more efficient to have all your weapons with the same effective range, rather than one set of weapons that will be useless at a given range, while the other set of weapons would lack stopping power due to insufficient numbers.

It's also better for carrying ammos if they'll all the same type.



Why have PPC become the bread and butter of MWO? Because of Heat, but not the way you might think. PGI has severely nerfed heat regen from what it is in TT rules. Tripled rate of fire and DHS down to 1.4 instead of 2.0. Because heat is so much more crippling, you absolutely have to make each shot count, and that's part of why alpha >>> steady damage.


Still, I dislike your proposal, OP. One solution to the sniperfest alreadyt exist, it's called light mechs. YOu know, those pesky things that are hard to hit from afar (when used by a competent pilot), and will ruin a PPCboat's day in close.

the current matchmaker screws this up. you might end up against 6 assaults... and tonnage wins regardless of how good the light mech pilot is. Especially when all it takes is one shot.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Don't forget things like streak SRM 6's.

And about 50 other weapons that haven't been accounted for yet.

Once again, JUST hardpoint restrictions is a band-aid fix for a hot second.

We'll be right back here again at some point.

[Zyllos]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I don't think just hardpoint restrictions work.

Here is the thing, we need to think about the overall issue. Basically the end results of the problem.

Mechs die too quickly.

Yes how they die too quickly changes, but in the end that's always the issue.

So lets say we do change hardpoints.

Eventually SRM's are going to be upgraded/fixed and everyone is going to be like "Well crap, I can pop on 6 SRM 6's again and run my Catapult. And you can't really limit the Catapult's Missile Hardpoints.

Then we are all complaing about the Catapult again.

You cannot fix everything in one fashion. It's not going to be JUST fixing heat, JUST fixing hardpoints JUST fixing convergence. There is always going to be some loop hole, like Gauss for heat, SRM's for hardpoints, a mech who can load 3 weapons into the same area for convergence.

What you should be seeing is a mix.

Lower heat to half, double dissipation.

Create non-instant convergence via one of the 50 ideas on the forums. Make people work for that perfect shot.

And maybe create a more strict hardpoint system as well.

But just one of those won't fix it. It's going to be a combination.

While I agree that convergence needs to be worked on, your example of the Catapult with SRMs (Splatcat) will not be as bad as it was in the past.

SRMs have completely been changed in that SRMs spread all over the mech, which makes them balanced, if they did 2.0 damage. They currently deal 1.5 and it is making them pretty poor. If they end up being a problem at 2.0 damage, then make them ripple fire to require more aiming while firing.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Zyllos, on 01 July 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

While I agree that convergence needs to be worked on, your example of the Catapult with SRMs (Splatcat) will not be as bad as it was in the past.

SRMs have completely been changed in that SRMs spread all over the mech, which makes them balanced, if they did 2.0 damage. They currently deal 1.5 and it is making them pretty poor. If they end up being a problem at 2.0 damage, then make them ripple fire to require more aiming while firing.

Except you have no idea how PGI plans to upgrade them.

It was just an example, if you want to take it further. What about Streak SRM 6's?

What about Light Gauss Rifles?

What about MRM 40's?

What about Omni mechs that can mount clan tech?

What about...what about...what about...

If you balance based JUST on what we have now, it doesn't fix the underlying issues.

You need to make fixes that account for the future, and the future has MUCH faster kills if you leave heat and convergence the way they are.

I'm not asking for less skill. I'm asking for more skill to kill someone.

I want matches to last.

I want killing one mech not create a tidal wave leading to 8-0 matches.

We need to tackle ALL of these issues to fix these problems.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 01 July 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Sybreed]

Nicholas, again, you're right, hence why I think hardpoint sizes are only PART of the fix, not the whole fix itself. With a lilttle foreseeing, it's obvious hardpoint sizes alone won't fix the game.

PGI simply needs the balls to bring the big changes to the game. If they want to use that BETA claim then they should use their product as a beta and start testing stuff.

[Acid Phase]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 July 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

You need to make fixes that account for the future, and the future has MUCH faster kills if you leave heat and convergence the way they are.

QFT. Can we agree that the as far as balance, we need hardpoint restrictions, removal of pinpoint convergence and stricter heat penalty than Paul's 150% damage incur?

[Lucian Nostra]

3rdworld, on 01 July 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Are you attempting to argue that the AC.40 Cat or Jager aren't slow lumbering sniper bait PoS mechs that only scrub tier people care or worry about?

Nevermind, I think I answered my own question.

My Dual gauss Jager goes 71 kph with 6 tons of ammo and 2 back up MLs + 336 points of armor.. so no they don't lumber..

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Acid Phase, on 01 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

QFT. Can we agree that the as far as balance, we need hardpoint restrictions, removal of pinpoint convergence and stricter heat penalty than Paul's 150% damage incur?

The problem is first off, PGI doesn't seem to agree. And secondly there are players who LOVE this concept of boating, with pinpoint convergence.

It's all so freaking stupid.