75 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

At least some Space Canadians live here, under the rulership of Baron Grayson "Death" Carlyle, the man who started his unit by taking on a Locust on foot with an inferno launcher.

He also started his family the same way, yes?

[Tennex]

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You've dismissed every argument I've made with a general "They're strawmen" argument that doesn't provide any specifics, except for the one argument I conceded in your favour. If they're strawmen, demonstrate in what way I have misrepresented you. Otherwise, find some other argument against them.

Tennex's assertion that Mexican people are not representative America makes the assumption that "Americans" and Mexicans look different. Which would seem to being implying that "true" Americans are the white majority (Maybe I'm misinterpreting that, feel free to clarify how you intended to use the statement), or at least somehow that Mexicans aren't American. This woman:

is Antonia Novello, Hispanic by race and American by nationality, and as a former Surgeon General of the United States and later US felon, she'd be fine as a representation of someone from the US. And there's no reason that a person demonstrating Japanese culture can't represent the Capellan Confederation, especially when a large portion of their elite military practice Japanese traditions.


Ad hominem. Again. And I'm not doing this to defend FASA's mistakes, I'm doing this to counter the poor arguments and casual, unintentional racism.

Then why is she not wearing a Puerto Rican uniform but a US one. That would certainly relate more closely to our subject matter. (And if she did wear a Puerto Rican uniform, would we not all view it as wrong?) The mexican/american example was the only one that had anything to do with looks. I also used an example of hebrew/germany.

I've been reading these posts and you make a ton of what you guys are calling slippery slope arguments.

I'm not sure why you are using, deciding that Saying the Gi like clothing used is somehow similar to a Hanfu. And the ridiculous claim that somehow cloths in your wardrobe are closer to this depicted warrior's uniform than a japanese gi.

Edited by Tennex, 03 July 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[Tie Ma]

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You've dismissed every argument I've made with a general "They're strawmen" argument that doesn't provide any specifics, except for the one argument I conceded in your favour. If they're strawmen, demonstrate in what way I have misrepresented you. Otherwise, find some other argument against them.

I wouldn't put in the effort. You don't seem to smell your own bull sh*t.

But i will give you a taste.

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Secondly, I want whatever monitor you are using that let's you see what material the illustrated outfit in the picture is made of. Okay, sarcasm aside, I have no idea where you're getting the premise that the outfit in the picture is made of something other than silk. The best I can do is appeal to the abundance of curves and flowing lines, that don't suggest the stiff canvas of a gi to me, but honestly, I have no idea what that thing is made of. I'll let you know when forensics gets back to me.

The premise, for the non visually/non logically impaired Is that the artist is able to depict the material of the blade correctly.

The glint on the steel, the texture of the skin. He clearly has the skill. If he wanted to make the robe silk. He would have.

its a very simple logical deduction; steel is right, skin is right, cloth material is right.


All of this. Being irrelevant. because you yourself later said this;

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

That's fair. No, really, that's a legitimate argument. For him to be culturally sensitive, it would be ridiculous to represent Chinese culture with something that could be confused for Japanese.

do you not smell that? or do you not understand how it invalidates everything you said above it?

Edited by Tie Ma, 03 July 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Sparks Murphey]

Tennex, on 03 July 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Then why is she not wearing a Ruperto Rican uniform but a US one. That would certainly relate more closely to our subject matter. The mexican/american example was the only one that had anything to do with looks. I also used an example of hebrew/germany.

I've been reading these posts and you make a ton of what you guys are calling slippery slope arguments.

I'm not sure why you are using, deciding that Saying the Gi like clothing used is somehow similar to a Hanfu. And the ridiculous claim that somehow cloths in your wardrobe are closer to this depicted warrior's uniform than a japanese gi.

you do know you are making these ridiculous claims?

I own, and occasionally wear, a gi. I am an Australian. Therefore, a picture of me in a gi would be a picture of an Australian. It would not follow that because I am in a gi, I am Japanese, or representative of Japanese culture. Does that work better?

I'm explicitly not saying that it's like the han fu. In an earlier post, I pointed that out as well. Here, let me state it for you again.

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Firstly, I've never claimed it was a han fu. In fact, in pointing out that the gi and the han fu shared a collar-to-hip cut that isn't shared by the outfit in the picture, I've implicitly agreed that it's not a han fu. So, we're at least agreed: it's not a han fu. But as I argued earlier, not being a han fu doesn't make it a gi. My dressing gown isn't made of silk and it has a belt, but it's not a gi either.

It's not a han fu.

It. Is. Not. A. Han fu.

Itisnotahanfu.

I've also not denied that the argument we're having is a slippery slope. Again, in my last point, I explicitly stated that there is a slippery slope argument. Slippery slope arguments deny the presence of a middle ground, they say that a thing is either A or Z, without accounting for the possibility that there are other things in between. That, I've never done (though, if you would like to provide counterexamples, I'll happily see them). On the other hand, saying

it's either a han fu or a gi,

and since it's not a han fu,

then it's a gi,

is a slippery slope argument. The demonstration that my dressing gown also shares traits with both the gi, the han fu, and the depicted attire is a demonstration that the middle ground exists, and that by denying it, you are performing a logical fallacy.

Unless you're saying that my argument that your argument is a slippery slope argument, is itself a slippery slope argument, in which case I have no idea what you're talking about, since you've yet to show me any kind of middle ground between "is a slippery slope argument" and "is not a slippery slope argument" that your argument could fall into.

[Sparks Murphey]

Tie Ma, on 03 July 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

All of this. Being irrelevant. because you yourself later said this;


do you not smell that? or do you not understand how it invalidates everything you said above it?

Gah! YES, I get it, that was the entire point! It was an acknowledgement that that one argument you had finally used was a decent argument and that we could move on from whether or not it was a gi and a katana! Which you then ignored by going back to making illogical claims about the gi-like-thing that weren't helping your cause!

I then tried to move the discussion on to whether wearing a thing-that-looks-like-a-gi could be taken as "this person is Japanese", but you were still trying to prove that it was a gi and not a han fu. See my post above if you would like to make a response that is relevant.

[Tie Ma]

Tie Ma, on 03 July 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

There is no question that out of any asian cultures present, the depicted attire is closest to the Gi and the weapon is closest to the Katana.

check the time. This was before you claim i said it was either a hanfu or a gi (hence strawman)

and since I deny claims that I have said it is a Gi. and you deny claims that you have said it was a Han Fu. We're at the same place in that regard.

which only leaves your comment that he is using something confusable as japanese. Do you see where the meter dial is pointing closer to now? Hint; dial would be closer to japanese side. since we both agree on that.

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I then tried to move the discussion on to whether wearing a thing-that-looks-like-a-gi could be taken as "this person is Japanese", but you were still trying to prove that it was a gi and not a han fu. See my post above if you would like to make a response that is relevant.

Okay i just wanted to make sure we had an underestanding

Edited by Tie Ma, 03 July 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[Sparks Murphey]

Tie Ma, on 03 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

check the time. This was before you claim i said it was either a hanfu or a gi (hence strawman)

and since I deny claims that I have said it is a Gi. and you deny claims that you have said it was a Han Fu. We're at the same place in that regard.

which only leaves your comment that he is using something confusable as japanese. Do you see where the meter dial is pointing closer to now? Hint; dial would be closer to japanese side. since we both agree on that.

Okay i just wanted to make sure you understood that

Yep, it would be closer to Japanese than to Chinese, Mexican, American or Australian. However:

From Sarna:

Quote

Membership in a Warrior House is regarded as a great honor. Members wear long Katana blades (at least with their ceremonial uniforms) and are trained experts in a wide variety of martial skills, including MechWarrior (pilot) training, infantry training, infiltration, espionage and specialist training.

...it would be even more representative of a member of a Capellan Warrior House. Who used katanas. And practice bushido. Because their traditions incorporate a blend of Japanese, Chinese and Russian culture. Which includes gis and katanas.

[Neutron IX]

I'm just going to say it.

The conceptual introduction of "logical fallacies" is, in my opinion, hands down the worst thing to happen to the internet.

It turns every single "disagreement" into "strawman this", "ad hominem that", yadda yadda yadda. Booooorrring! And it nearly always seems to derail any "discussion" with a "debate" over who is out fallacying who.

Although, it's also kind of funny to observe.

P.S. Back on topic...the image that started this original debate comes from http://www.sarna.net...n_Confederation which I'm holding in front of me and staring at. It's a recruitment poster touting "Xin Sheng" and up-close, you can indeed see that the grip extends well below the clenched lower fist, and it does look indeed, very "katana-esque". Also, he appears to be wearing a mint-green "gi" and is standing in fire, with 3 tiny little purple-colored Men Shen mechs marching through the fire at his feet. Emblazoned across the poster is the slogan "Xin Sheng join the unity and become the blade of the Chancellor. The Liao sun is rising!".

Personally I have no problem with the image, since who am I to know what might signify a cultural collective in the year 3060...I mean, anything could happen right?

Edited by Rip Snorgan, 03 July 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Sparks Murphey]

Rip Snorgan, on 03 July 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm just going to say it.

The conceptual introduction of "logical fallacies" is, in my opinion, hands down the worst thing to happen to the internet.

It turns every single "disagreement" into "strawman this", "ad hominem that", yadda yadda yadda. Booooorrring! And it nearly always seems to derail any "discussion" with a "debate" over who is out fallacying who.

Although, it's also kind of funny to observe.

P.S. Back on topic...the image that started this original debate comes from http://www.sarna.net...n_Confederation which I'm holding in front of me and staring at. It's a recruitment poster touting "Xin Sheng" and up-close, you can indeed see that the grip extends well below the clenched lower fist, and it does look indeed, very "katana-esque". Also, he appears to be wearing a mint-green "gi" and is standing in fire, with 3 tiny little purple-colored Men Shen mechs marching through the fire at his feet. Emblazoned across the poster is the slogan "Xin Sheng join the unity and become the blade of the Chancellor. The Liao sun is rising!".

Personally I have no problem with the image, since who am I to know what might signify a cultural collective in the year 3060...I mean, anything could happen right?

If it's a recruitment poster for Xin Sheng, that nails it. It's definitely wrong. Xin Sheng was a 3060's movement that was entirely about bringing Chinese culture into the foreground. A gi and katana have no place on a poster promoting Xin Sheng.

Ta for that, Rip!

[Neutron IX]

Sparks Murphey, on 03 July 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

If it's a recruitment poster for Xin Sheng, that nails it. It's definitely wrong. Xin Sheng was a 3060's movement that was entirely about bringing Chinese culture into the foreground. A gi and katana have no place on a poster promoting Xin Sheng.

Ta for that, Rip!

I do agree with your conclusion conceptually, but I guess I feel like I have to allow that, what's the guarantee that "Chinese culture" looks exactly as it does today more than 1000 years from now? Cultures constantly "adopt" from one another, and in a vast interstellar culture with no real "countries" to speak of, where "China" no longer exists as a country but only as a heritage or concept, it seems like just about anything is maybe possible.

Do I believe that it's more likely that the artist created the image perhaps in ignorance, and definitely without anticipating the way we internet {Noble MechWarriors} are prone to dissect the most obscure minutiae of our beloved "IPs", than that the image is a well thought out depiction of what he intended? Hell yeah! But, at the same time, hey, it's 3060, there are flying dragons that people ride (see Branth) and this (Far Country) happened, so what are we REALLY arguing about here? As much as I loved the movie Galaxy Quest, I always felt like I was more a "Guy" than a "Brandon".

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 01 July 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

http://bg.battletech.com/?page_id=1913



This guy is wearing a Gi
and holding a katana. How is this Liao in any way?

and I thought you were referring to all the obnoxious "Liaos" in game going "SQUAWK!" all the time.........


And hey... Liao and Kurita are both Pan Asian....... not pure Chinese or Japanese, even if the "official" culture leans more toward one or the other.

That is as Liao as a 6'7" Blondie named Bjorn, or a Northwind Highlander Death Commando....or a Red Haired, Green Eyed Chancellor.

Just sayin.

[Stalephreak]

Victor Morson, on 03 July 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

From 2010.

Can we end this hilariously off topic and unintentionally racist derail?

Especially considering I was just being facetious.

[Tennex]

Rip Snorgan, on 03 July 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm just going to say it.

The conceptual introduction of "logical fallacies" is, in my opinion, hands down the worst thing to happen to the internet.

It turns every single "disagreement" into "strawman this", "ad hominem that", yadda yadda yadda. Booooorrring! And it nearly always seems to derail any "discussion" with a "debate" over who is out fallacying who.

Although, it's also kind of funny to observe.

P.S. Back on topic...the image that started this original debate comes from http://www.sarna.net...n_Confederation which I'm holding in front of me and staring at. It's a recruitment poster touting "Xin Sheng" and up-close, you can indeed see that the grip extends well below the clenched lower fist, and it does look indeed, very "katana-esque". Also, he appears to be wearing a mint-green "gi" and is standing in fire, with 3 tiny little purple-colored Men Shen mechs marching through the fire at his feet. Emblazoned across the poster is the slogan "Xin Sheng join the unity and become the blade of the Chancellor. The Liao sun is rising!".

Personally I have no problem with the image, since who am I to know what might signify a cultural collective in the year 3060...I mean, anything could happen right?

agreed. and often times "logical fallacies" are used in argument that matter. Very often in the court of law. For example discrediting a witness for maybe considered an "ad hominem fallacy". But is used to great effect and an acceptable method

its not very clear but this is the biggest image i could find



I can't really make out anything (the sword?). But it does look a bit like a yukata with pauldrons

Japanese:
Oroku Saki(shredder)

yukata


But its confusing. since theres also stuff like this (notice the hat though)

Chinese:


Korean


though arguably the fit between the 3 is different because of material/size/cut(sleeve length). There are also some differences in accessory wear. Since the chinese and korean outfits are considered formal wear and always accompanies a funny looking hat (or hair pins), while the yukata does not have a hat and usually worn with sandals.

and the one in the image is closer to a yukata but aside from the hat really the differences are so minor in the actual cloth.

Edited by Tennex, 03 July 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[Anjian]

Hrungnir, on 03 July 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Though it definitely looks like a gi, the sword could very well be a Miao Dao (Two-handed Dao):



Or, as has been said, a guy from the Warrior House Fujita.

That is definitely a Miao Dao.

You can distinguish it from the size, which is much larger than modern Katanas, which is limited to a standard 28" blade length; by the tip, and the handle which is straight, not curved. Miao Dao by the way, means Spout Leaf Saber, which means the blade looks like that of a growing single leaf of grass.

As a martial art of its own, Miao Dao is growing in popularity and included in competitions. Note the low sweeping cuts that is the trademark of the style.

[Tie Ma]

Anjian, on 03 July 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

That is definitely a Miao Dao.

You can distinguish it from the size, which is much larger than modern Katanas, which is limited to a standard 28" blade length; by the tip, and the handle which is straight, not curved. Miao Dao by the way, means Spout Leaf Saber, which means the blade looks like that of a growing single leaf of grass.

As a martial art of its own, Miao Dao is growing in popularity and included in competitions. Note the low sweeping cuts that is the trademark of the style.

all about the guan dao baby

[Anjian]

In Wushu competitions, you use a flexible blade on your jian, daos, guan daos or pu daos because judges judge by the sound of the "snap" you make. This signifies you are executing the style flawlessly with confidence and force.

The exception to that would be with the Miao Dao. They actually use real weighty steel swords because you need to feel and control the weight and handle it with balance, and make it flow with your style.






Similar to the Miao Dao is the Zhanmadao or Cutting Horse Saber. There is a greater range in the appearance of this weapon, however, with two of the forms shown here.



Or more flared at the tip like this. But more important than the physical form of the weapon, there is a style behind it, and its distinct from the Miao Dao.

[Neutron IX]

This is all pretty cool stuff, thanks for linking it.

I don't know a ton about martial arts forms, but sword forms especially (making me a de facto Leonardo fan in TMNT based medias I suppose ) I find pretty fascinating and a bit mesmerizing.

As for the image in question, it's an internal page from the FM:CC that Tennex linked the cover of above. I wish I could find a better image of the original, that was large enough for folks to see it, but all I can find is the same heavily cropped and smallish one that was originally linked. Seeing the sword you've mentioned, I could see how easy it could be to mistake one for a katana and vice versa.

[Cervantes88]

This whole topic

[Ghostrider0067]

Tennex, on 03 July 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Then why is she not wearing a Puerto Rican uniform but a US one. That would certainly relate more closely to our subject matter. (And if she did wear a Puerto Rican uniform, would we not all view it as wrong?) The mexican/american example was the only one that had anything to do with looks. I also used an example of hebrew/germany.

I've been reading these posts and you make a ton of what you guys are calling slippery slope arguments.

I'm not sure why you are using, deciding that Saying the Gi like clothing used is somehow similar to a Hanfu. And the ridiculous claim that somehow cloths in your wardrobe are closer to this depicted warrior's uniform than a japanese gi.

Why is she not wearing a Puerto Rican uniform? It's because they don't have them seeing as they are recognized as citizens of the United States, not Puerto Ricans, due to legislation passed in 1917. Further, since the country is a possession/territory of the US, they have no military of their own and thus wear the uniform of the US. Until that somehow changes, which is very unlikely, it will remain that way. This was a poor example, anyway. Besides, nitpicking on the uniform in this instance really makes no sense nor does the greater argument in relation to whatever or however you want to classify what is being worn in the original picture in question.

It's merely a GAME and has flaws just like everything else. Did they screw up and potentially mix some cultural elements? Sure. However, seeing as this is a game that takes place more than 1000 years in the future, there's no telling how things will or would end up. Also, seeing that this is a work of fiction with some historical elements tossed in, the writers and artists obviously took what's called "artistic license" and ran with it.

[Max Liao]

I would think that a society of the 31st century may be a bit more multi-cultural than we're giving them credit for - even if there are blatant stereotypes and cultural influences presented.

As a side note Senior Colonel Pavil Ridzik (the senior military officer of the Capellan Confederation military) carried a katana - he had red hair, pale skin, and a katana - but I don't think anyone would say that he wasn't representative of the Confederation.

Maskirovka is a Russian word, yet is very symbolic of the Capellan Confederation.

Let's just admit there's a lot of cross pollination, balkanization, and contamination between the peoples of a galactic society.