38 replies to this topic

[Draxern]

As most know the clans have their own set of honor (Zellbrigen)in battle where they would engage in one on one fights until they had defeated their enemy. Or their enemy proved themselves to be scum.

So how could you implement this into an online world where players will and do exploit any mechanic they can in order to win an encounter. Firstly i feel that that once a clan mech is fired apon by an IS mech it can only target that mech until it is destroyed or another IS mech fires apon them until Zellbrigen is broken.

If IS mech fires on multiple targets then all the clan mechs can target them.

If clan mech player does not follow Zellbrigen then they receive a warning failure to follow it makes them an enemy mech of other clans players. And must be destroyed in order for the clans to win the battle. Even if the IS breaks the rules of zellbrigen and makes it a free for all at a later stage in the fight.

This i feel would encourage clan mechs to have to obey Zellbrigen and thus give the IS mechs only advantage they had vs superior tech of the clans.

So clan vs IS battles would come down to

• Clans declare challenges or are challenged by an IS mech firing on them.
  
• They can only target the mechs that challenged them with their targeting key.
  
• If Zellbrigen is broken then Clans can target whoever they wish.
  
• If a clan mech engages or breaks Zellbrigen before the IS mechs have broken it then it must be destroy for the clans to win the fight.

I feel this would handicap the clans as the Zellbrigen rules where created to do. And give the IS pilots a chance to exploit these tactics.

[Arafinar]

IIRC Zell has to be offered and no self respecting clan would offer it to IS units.

[Strisk]

I don't think Zellbrigen was created to handicap the clans, and I don't think any discussion on this is relevant to the current game as the clans are still a long ways off.

That being said I don't think there should be any system in place preventing anyone from targeting/shooting at anyone.

[Warskull]

I think the better solution is that clan is simply an unplayable faction. Players can use purchased/salvaged clan mechs.

[CheeseThief]

So... if I am reading the OP's post correctly, the IS would be forced to comply with Zellbrigen so the clanners can't focus fire, which leaves the inferior IS mechs fighting the clanners on the clanners terms in 1vs1 battles.

How about no.


If you want Zellbrigen to be in the game, make is so the clanners have to tag a target and the game locks the fire button unless it's pointing at that target.

[Draxern]

Arafinar, on 10 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

IIRC Zell has to be offered and no self respecting clan would offer it to IS units.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen
History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]


This would show that it was offered to the IS and that the IS would exploit it. So in order to balance out the superior tech that clan players would receive they should be handicaped each battle by having to follow Zellbrigen.

[Skylarr]

Draxern, on 10 June 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

As most know the clans have their own set of honor (Zellbrigen)in battle where they would engage in one on one fights until they had defeated their enemy. Or their enemy proved themselves to be scum.

So how could you implement this into an online world where players will and do exploit any mechanic they can in order to win an encounter. Firstly i feel that that once a clan mech is fired apon by an IS mech it can only target that mech until it is destroyed or another IS mech fires apon them until Zellbrigen is broken.

If IS mech fires on multiple targets then all the clan mechs can target them.

If clan mech player does not follow Zellbrigen then they receive a warning failure to follow it makes them an enemy mech of other clans players. And must be destroyed in order for the clans to win the battle. Even if the IS breaks the rules of zellbrigen and makes it a free for all at a later stage in the fight.

This i feel would encourage clan mechs to have to obey Zellbrigen and thus give the IS mechs only advantage they had vs superior tech of the clans.

So clan vs IS battles would come down to

• Clans declare challenges or are challenged by an IS mech firing on them.
  
• They can only target the mechs that challenged them with their targeting key.
  
• If Zellbrigen is broken then Clans can target whoever they wish.
  
• If a clan mech engages or breaks Zellbrigen before the IS mechs have broken it then it must be destroy for the clans to win the fight.

I feel this would handicap the clans as the Zellbrigen rules where created to do. And give the IS pilots a chance to exploit these tactics.

This is what I said 2 days ago in the Clan section of the forum. You can see it here.

[Draxern]

CheeseThief, on 10 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

So... if I am reading the OP's post correctly, the IS would be forced to comply with Zellbrigen so the clanners can't focus fire, which leaves the inferior IS mechs fighting the clanners on the clanners terms in 1vs1 battles.

How about no.


If you want Zellbrigen to be in the game, make is so the clanners have to tag a target and the game locks the fire button unless it's pointing at that target.

They are not forced to follow it as shown in my previous post the IS would often choose when it was most advantages for them to break it.

[Arafinar]

Draxern, on 10 June 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen
History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]


This would show that it was offered to the IS and that the IS would exploit it. So in order to balance out the superior tech that clan players would receive they should be handicaped each battle by having to follow Zellbrigen.

Ok ,it was offered and they got screwed, so they quit offering,right? when playing I never offered it to IS
units because they were considered beneath the clans in honor, sort of like chivalry in the middle ages
was only meant for nobles.

But to address the implimentation of such a thing in MWO, no I want to shoot anything red that moves or doesnt.

Edited by Arafinar, 10 June 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Draxern]

Arafinar, on 10 June 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Ok ,it was offered and they got screwed, so they quit offering,right? when playing I never offered it to IS
units because they were considered beneath the clans in honor, sort of like chivalry in the middle ages
was only meant for nobles.

Yea by the end of the campaign. Still means the practice was part of the campaign and should be available for IS pilots to exploit until the tech advantage balances out.

Ps i have asked a mod to combine this into the clan thread you mentioned.

[Arafinar]

Draxern, on 10 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Yea by the end of the campaign. Still means the practice was part of the campaign and should be available for IS pilots to exploit until the tech advantage balances out.

Ps i have asked a mod to combine this into the clan thread you mentioned.

Well seems to me if you want this, why not hold yourself to the same rules.
If YOU are fighting a unit that you want to give this advantage to, well bargain and done it.
If they hold to it fine and dandy if they dont its the same result the clans got.

[Shootanoob]

The idea is somehow appealing, but I very much doubt that this will be a concept which will have success in the game.

Even if Clan Warriors would be technically forced to accept Zellbrigen as long as it is not broken (e.g. do not letting them shoot on enemies which are already engaged in a honourable duel), this more often than not would end up with 1 IS pilot to spoil the show for the rest.

If clans become a playable faction (which I hope for) there are imho only 3 suitable handlings to keep things balanced:

a) reduce the fighting potential of the Clans by either not allowing them to field the same number or the same weight of Mechs in a single battle than the IS can deploy
enhance the fighting potential of the IS by either making looted clanequip available to them or let them have theit own technological break-throughs
c) allow the clans only to fight amongst each other

[Draxern]

Arafinar, on 10 June 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Well seems to me if you want this, why not hold yourself to the same rules.
If YOU are fighting a unit that you want to give this advantage to, well bargain and done it.
If they hold to it fine and dandy if they dont its the same result the clans got.

Whole point of the system was to balance the fact the clans have a HUGE tech advantage over the IS and thus it would create a pointless game to introduce the clans without it. A 12 v 12 fight between clans with clantech and IS with old standard tech is pointless and boring. The IS mechs would be out gunned , out ranged by faster enemies.

And the game would suffer because of it.

[Strisk]

I fail to see how a 12v12 Clan vs IS battle is too skewed towards the clanners, but 12 1v1 battles is not.

Enforcing Zell would only make it take longer.

[Draxern]

BigPuma, on 10 June 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

The idea is somehow appealing, but I very much doubt that this will be a concept which will have success in the game.

Even if Clan Warriors would be technically forced to accept Zellbrigen as long as it is not broken (e.g. do not letting them shoot on enemies which are already engaged in a honourable duel), this more often than not would end up with 1 IS pilot to spoil the show for the rest.

Well i think that the whole point the clans would be forced to follow the rules until the IS pilots attacked and broke it. Thus giving the IS team the option of when it would most be advantages for them to do so. EG clan madcat is engaged with the atlas the Hunchback circles around behind him using his ac 20 to slice and dice.

Or the IS pilots draws the command mech into an open area for 1 v 1 before having his whole lance open up on him.

Edited by Draxern, 10 June 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[Arafinar]

Draxern, on 10 June 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Whole point of the system was to balance the fact the clans have a HUGE tech advantage over the IS and thus it would create a pointless game to introduce the clans without it. A 12 v 12 fight between clans with clantech and IS with old standard tech is pointless and boring. The IS mechs would be out gunned , out ranged by faster enemies.

And the game would suffer because of it.

Honestly, am not worried about it. Have fought in IS mech vs clan and won. Have fought in clan mechs vs IS and lost
its a matter of tactics no matter what the lore says.

[Draxern]

Arafinar, on 10 June 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Honestly, am not worried about it. Have fought in IS mech vs clan and won. Have fought in clan mechs vs IS and lost
its a matter of tactics no matter what the lore says.

That would be due to the fact the tech imbalance had leveled out in previous versions of Mechwarrior try fielding a standard IS mech with no tech upgrades vs a clan mech......

[Arafinar]

Draxern, on 10 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

That would be due to the fact the tech imbalance had leveled out in previous versions of Mechwarrior try fielding a standard IS mech with no tech upgrades vs a clan mech......

if you say so. I disagree, so how about we agree to do that?

[CheeseThief]

Reguardless of how you spin this, the clanners will either be 1vs1ing with superior tech, or focus firing with superior tech when Zell is broken. There are no down sides to this for the clanners, and there is no way for IS players to properly co-ordinate to exploit these rules in a public game.

If your going to suggest rules to make fighting clan mechs as IS fair, at least give the clanners some real downsides for all their flashy upgrades.

[Unobtainium]

Strisk, on 10 June 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

I fail to see how a 12v12 Clan vs IS battle is too skewed towards the clanners, but 12 1v1 battles is not.

Enforcing Zell would only make it take longer.

Why should it be 12v12 ? Using Company vs. Star (12v5) in the beginning of the invasion and Company vs. Binary when IS tech starts to catch up would bring more interesting and balanced match-ups. So even with the Zell IS would have a chance, and without... all would depend on how the Clan weapons are ported to the game.

Edited by Unobtainium, 11 June 2012 - 12:43 AM.