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Open Letter To Pgi: Why You're Having Such Trouble Balancing Mwo


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Poll: Open Letter To Pgi: Why You're Having Such Trouble Balancing Mwo (285 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think the discussed features should be added to the test server after 12v12 is in the live game?

  1. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! (235 votes [82.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 82.46%

  2. Nah, I agree with Paul, the game is great as is. (26 votes [9.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.12%

  3. I don't really care. (24 votes [8.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.42%

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#501 jakucha

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:09 AM

View PostDarkJaguar, on 14 July 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

This is the current heat system as it functions over a period of 10 seconds, using this STK-3F.
Posted Image
This chart shows how that same build would react under the heat proposal in my OP.
Posted Image
Next, I reformatted the chart to show how that same build would act in my proposed time scale, with my proposed values.
Posted Image
Finally, this chart depicts how a STOCK STK-3F would act with my proposed time scale and values.
Posted Image
Now keep in mind that both of these charts are “sterile”, meaning that they represent 10 seconds of continuous fire from a stationary platform, and that the damage shown is “Potential damage”, not “damage dealt”.



I'm totally for testing and adding an expanded and harsher heat penalty system. I feel like their small implementation of the current heat damage system may be a gateway for this as well.

#502 DarkJaguar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

View Postjakucha, on 14 July 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:



I'm totally for testing and adding an expanded and harsher heat penalty system. I feel like their small implementation of the current heat damage system may be a gateway for this as well.


Right on man, I hope the graphics helped you get a better feel for what I was talking about. :D

#503 Teralitha

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostSam Slade, on 14 July 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Great post. This has been said and said again many times since closed beta.

thus far there have been no solid reasons not to implement pretty much all the changes you speak of (love the idea of weapon varients doing damage altered with time) and the covergence/cone of fire haters are missing the point me thinks.

But, PGI will never do it... MWO is headed the same way as those nifty pay to win games you get on a smartphone



cone of fire/ weapon convergence if implemented would only be another bandaid fix while the core mechanics issue behind the the problem will still be there. Better to target the root cause when it affects the entire game rather than bandaid only 1 aspect.

View PostDarkJaguar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Say hi to Illusion for me.


Illusion doesnt like you.

Edited by Teralitha, 14 July 2013 - 09:16 AM.


#504 DarkJaguar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:14 AM

View PostTeralitha, on 14 July 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:




cone of fire/ weapon convergence if implemented would only be another bandaid fix while the core mechanics issue behind the the problem will still be there. Better to target the root cause when it affects the entire game rather than bandaid only 1 aspect.


The whole point of my OP was that these changes should be all made together, as they are complementary to one another. CoF won't address broken damage numbers, and likewise fixing damage numbers won't address pin-point aim.

#505 RG Notch

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostTeralitha, on 14 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

They may graphically appear to have a burst of ammo flying through the air but trust me.... it was still just 1 instant shot doing damage to one location.


Not many ppl have voted on this poll even though its many pages long......

That's because people realize this is nice theory crafting, none of this will ever be in this game. So while it's worthwhile intellectual debate, in the end, for this game, it's just back and forth between a few people. no, it won't be on the test server either.
Back to regularly scheduled back and forth about nothing.

#506 DarkJaguar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 14 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:


That's because people realize this is nice theory crafting, none of this will ever be in this game. So while it's worthwhile intellectual debate, in the end, for this game, it's just back and forth between a few people. no, it won't be on the test server either.
Back to regularly scheduled back and forth about nothing.


That or, I started the poll when the thread was already 20 pages in...

#507 Teralitha

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostDarkJaguar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

The whole point of my OP was that these changes should be all made together, as they are complementary to one another. CoF won't address broken damage numbers, and likewise fixing damage numbers won't address pin-point aim.



There is nothing wrong with aplha strikes, pin point aim and damage numbers, they are only symptoms of the real core mechanic problem. Fix the core problem, and those symptoms are no long an issue.

Edited by Teralitha, 14 July 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#508 DarkJaguar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostTeralitha, on 14 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:




There is nothing wrong with aplha strikes, pin point aim and damage numbers, they are only symptoms of the real core mechanic problem. Fix the core problem, and those symptoms are no long an issue.


which is...?

#509 RG Notch

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:33 AM

View PostDarkJaguar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

That or, I started the poll when the thread was already 20 pages in...

Or it's like I said, of course you think otherwise as the pollster. I voted don't care, because as I said nothing being said here is going to effect anything. :D

#510 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:36 AM

View PostTeralitha, on 14 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:



There is nothing wrong with aplha strikes, pin point aim and damage numbers, they are only symptoms of the real core mechanic problem. Fix the core problem, and those symptoms are no long an issue.

There is every thing wrong with alphastrikes and pinpoint group fired damage by using multiplied damage in a balanced system that relied on inaccuracy against segmented armor.

Your making headshots by hitting the CT that way, and its not how it should be.

#511 Teralitha

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 14 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Or it's like I said, of course you think otherwise as the pollster. I voted don't care, because as I said nothing being said here is going to effect anything. :D


He said damage and heat numbers are the core of the issue. Heat is #1. Setting damage numbers/recycle times etc are important, but not #1.

Weapon convergence, alpha striking, and pin point damage are really non issues.


Also... creating a heat penalty system is nice, but is not going to solve the real core problem with heat, PAUL

Edited by Teralitha, 14 July 2013 - 09:41 AM.


#512 AndyHill

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:39 AM

I have to admit I haven't investigated your idea more than superficially, so I really don't know, but how would for example these two builds fare?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...71e36ff4acaaf64
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0adb7b4e33b78bd

#513 Teralitha

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostAndyHill, on 14 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I have to admit I haven't investigated your idea more than superficially, so I really don't know, but how would for example these two builds fare?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...71e36ff4acaaf64
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0adb7b4e33b78bd



They suck. Worst mechs and builds ever! Is there a point to your vague trolling question?

Edited by Teralitha, 14 July 2013 - 09:49 AM.


#514 Joe Mallad

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:03 AM

My stance on all of this is if they would have just left the armor at normal values and weapons at normal damage values and not made thier fire rates and recyleling times so fast... We probably would not have many balancing issues. They want it to be a thinking mans shooter? Well make people think of tactics more so than how much damage and how fast they can get it on target. This is supposed to be a game about large mechs that are not meant to be fast like armored core mechs. So what's wrong with them feeling slow and cumbersome? What's wrong with waiting on most weapons to take longer to reload and fire? This isn't supposed to be call of duty and its becoming more and more like that.

In true MW, if a light or medium mech gets hit by a AC20 there is a good chance it is going to die or be extremely crippled. If a Atlas at base armor of its true 308 armor is hit by an AC20 it too should feel it. 1 AC 20 to a standard armored atlas at 308 armor will feel it and or be in trouble if hit in the back. Yet in this game, it shrubs it off. In my opinion, the double armor is the start of all the trouble. After it was added, people complained that weapons were not doing enough damage. So than damage numbers went up, rate of fire went up so other weapons could get more fire power on target to chew through that double armor. And all this did was throw the heat balance out the window.

You want a true hard core game mode? Than put all armor values and weapon damage values to TT values, make the rate of fire or reload times longer. Watch how fast single heat sinks become used again and how doubles feel like doubles and how fast people stop boating Heatsinks because they are not raising their heat as fast because the weapons can't fire as fast to build the heat.

And watch how fast this game mode becomes the most played.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 14 July 2013 - 10:06 AM.


#515 DarkJaguar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostAndyHill, on 14 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I have to admit I haven't investigated your idea more than superficially, so I really don't know, but how would for example these two builds fare?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...71e36ff4acaaf64
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0adb7b4e33b78bd


Your build
Posted Image
Stock K2
Posted Image

Your Build
Posted Image
Stock JM6-S
Posted Image

I don't really feel that the listed builds are overhwlemingly superior to the stock builds. Each has it's strengths.

The Stock K2 for example has multiple chances to deal good amounts of damage in bursts, while the Gauss Cat gets one chance for that every 10 seconds.

The AC20 Jager does great damage, but it's limited to 270m of accurate shooting, whereas the stock build can sustain it's DPS at pretty long ranges.

Edited by DarkJaguar, 14 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.


#516 Cybermech

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

I can't believe there are 109 idiots on this thread.
Yes there are problems, so bad that I barley play and have gone off to do other things.
I'm not guna state that there are no problems.

The MAJOR flaws in "your system" which is actually lots of peoples rants put into one.
First is that game balance that is in now is from people complaining.
As much as people would like to blame PGI on that one, its not true and I'l explain why.
Crying on the forums got, PPC bumped, Ac2, AC5, UA5, Ac20, Lrm's, LL, ERLL.
At the start of beta is was a well discussed opinion that ML was balanced and basing the game around them was a great thing to do.
Crying on the forums got rid of "repair and rearm" one of a major factor PGI were going to be using as a balancing tool.
Even now you can see people regret the choice they forced PGI TO MAKE.

The cone system in any game is easily manipulated, giving those who are already skilled at the game would gain a major advantage.
Even without adding in the extra features to manipulate it even further.

If you make ballistics more like lasers, damage over 10 seconds.
The lag would make ballistics do even less damage in game which will involve more crying to put up the damage/dps.
Which would make it pointless.

Yours and WAY too many peoples biggest mistake is keeping putting this game into table top terms.
Which invalidates most of the OP.
Skill unlocked have ruined this game way more then any changes being made to weapons.
If Assaults and Heavies were slow as they should be then there wouldn't much of a problem.
But people would just cry about that too.
One major flaw is PGI not changing thing quick enough.
Crying again has been one of the biggest reasons for this.

Before you get all preachy, I do think PGI suck for not changing PPC heat for a long time.
I do think PGI suck for not changing ECM for a long time.
It is what it is, can't get everything right and I'm sure there are plenty of reason for this.
But if I add up what damage crying on these forums has caused it would completely out pass PGI's mistakes.

This game would be so bad if the changes your asking for was implemented.
There needs to be changes, more ones thought out for a PC game then the TT is a must.

#517 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:05 AM

Here's an example of why it's hard to balance MW:O weapon by weapon the way it is. The underlying system creates its own hurdles and pitfalls.

View PostHotthedd, on 14 July 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Well that would be exactly where weapon balancing comes into play. Individual weapons would now be able to be tweaked without the "unseen?" implications of boating. Right now, weapon balancing does not work very well because it is done on a per weapon basis, even though nobody fires just one weapon.

Yes, this is extremely important ,in fact, due to the way heat capacity works. And, ultimately, also how armour works, and how this interacts.

If you just equip a single PPC, you can go fine with just the engine heat sinks. That means the effective weight of sustaining a single PPC is 7 tons.
But if you equip 2 PPCs, you suddenly generate a lot of heat. (About 2 per second). THat would mean after 25 seconds, you'd overheat. That's still good, you'll probably never have to fire for that long. So the weight to run 2 PPCs is 14, twice a smuch as 1 PPC.
But now you equip 3 PPCs. Suddenly you could only last for 16 seconds. Still sounds akay, 16 seconds is a good time. So the weight to run 3 PPCs is 21, three times as much as 1 PPC.
But now 4 PPCs. Suddenly you last 8 seconds! Maybe now it's time to get some DHS. If you want to get back to 16 seconds, you actually need 14 out-of-engine DHS! So 4 PPCs don't need the expected 28 tons, but 42 tons to be run! That's 6 times as much as a single PPC.

Now the math gets kinda complicated! How do you balance this?
And this was just "boating math". What if you add Large Lasers instead of PPCs, for example.


Of course, you can say - but firing for an infinite time is much longer than firing for 25 seconds, and firing for 25 seconds is much better than firing for 12 seconds...

But then there is this:

With 20 DHS, you can fire 4 PPCs 3 to 4 salvos before you overheat, so about 8 to 12 seconds. In that time, you also deal 120 to 160 damage. Which, compared to the armor on the CT of Heavy Mech, is pretty much core-worthy, and for any mech pretty cripple-worthy - if it can be applied well.
So 12-16 seconds might be more than enough time, and essentiallyy, just because a build lasts twice as long, doesn't mean it's twice as good.

And, a propos of applied well - Shooting 4 attacks and hitting all the same spot is not trival, but you've got 4 seconds time to aim or torso twist or move into and out of cover between each shot. Trying to fire 16 shots and hitting all the same spot with only 1 second to aim, torso twist or move into and out of cover between each shot is... challenging.

---

Personally, I find this non-linear aspects of the cost of heat extremely hard to balance. If it can be balanced at all. So I'd try to move towards a system where you overheat more quickly but dissipate faster, so that this magic point of where you really need to add the sinks to compensate your heat gain starts much earlier. That is essentially what the table top mechanics did, by having heat penalties starting at a heat level 5.

The whole issue of "precisely applied damage" is also hard to balance if it becomes a factor for groups of weapons. Balancing a single weapon around the advantage of how much damage it deals per shot is compared to others seems easier. (And was also done that way in the table top - every attack required its own to-hit and hit location roll.)
Maybe there are smart people that can figure these out. But I fear they have yet to arrive on the forums and armchair design the problem away, or be hired by PGI.

#518 Akulakhan

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:52 AM

Everyone in here is really passionate and throwing out ideas (if they're good or not, it doesn't matter, no one's listening) and it really shows what a dedicated playerbase this game could have if PGI would just, you know, look at their game. But this isn't going to happen. We're going to have 3PV, for reasons of attracting new players, who aren't going to stay anyway just because they can see their mechs doing things; they're going to leave after the 50th roflstomp of getting fried by 4 PPC Stalkers. Which aren't going away with the heat "nerf", every good player worth his or her salt knows chainfire or firing 2 at a time is going to incur no penalty.

I'm sorry lads,but this forum is a giant blackhole where no idea of yours is going to be implemented. the devs are convinced they're on a Golden Path towards some sort of online multiplayer godhood, and 3PV and releasing MC-only variants while keeping the game's balance broken for four months at a time is the Right Way of doing things. My clan has been hopelessly inactive for months now, whereas we used to push 100 people on TS at any one time before the release of the Highlander and the unleashing of the current god-awful meta. Nerf to jumpsniping brought back some activity from jade Wolf and our Paragon colleagues, but the last patch with the right-intention but poorly-implemented movement change plus the re-unshackling of jumpsniping nipped a potential renaissance in the bud.

I do predict that this next patch may be game over for many units. But feel good, comrades. You tried. Now let's keep going through the stages of grief together.

#519 AndyHill

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:52 AM

It seems that I've already forgotten how much the heat system punishes in MWO. However, if I get the chance to do a lot of burst damage, I'll always take that instead of sustained fire. Since you enjoy making graphs, I might learn a bit more about your system with a couple of example builds:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...60a94a01deb175f
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...288d213706ca7f9
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f28b926c497d855

#520 Hotthedd

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostHawks, on 05 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I never liked Batman, I could never understand what made people get so excited about watching an over-privileged **** in a gimp suit beating up clowns.

Are you serious? I would pay good money to see an over-privileged **** in a gimp suit beat up a clown.





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