158 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Tincan Nightmare, on 09 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

And how will you abuse the lack of engine exposions, that should be pretty comical to watch.

Oh... You will see.

[Teralitha]

Kazzamo, on 09 June 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

It's simple. The game is a mech sim. As in simulation. For that fact alone there should be at least some level of logic or reasonability to it. Most the weapons and such have their fluff text in canon to explain them and such. The game has its "science" even if fictional science already. Stick to it.

I find it completely reasonable that my enemy mech explodes after shooting it awhile... let me ask you a question....
What happens to a mech that overheats for a long time... , that is, what happens to the mech, if all they have are energy weapons? What is the penalty for continuously firing your energy weapons, and overriding automatic shutdown? is it.... an explosion?

Or... is that an heat exploit, in a GAME einstien says.. 'Acha.... acha...

Edited by Teralitha, 09 June 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[Kazzamo]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

I find it completely reasonable that my enemy mech explodes after shooting it awhile... let me ask you a question....
What happens to a mech that overheats for a long time... , that is, what happens to the mech, if all they have are energy weapons? What is the penalty for continuously firing your energy weapons, and overriding automatic shutdown? is it.... an explosion?

That's assuming we can override right? Well... either there would be a limit to how much until a final fail safe kicks in and shuts you down, or maybe they myomers melt and your mech is locked up since your "muscles" are gone. Lastly the casing of the engine finally melts and air gets in and the core freezes like when it gets breached by bullets. All perfectly reasonable ways for a mech to be punished without going the "Explosions!" path.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

I find it completely reasonable that my enemy mech explodes after shooting it awhile... let me ask you a question....
What happens to a mech that overheats for a long time... , that is, what happens to the mech, if all they have are energy weapons? What is the penalty for continuously firing your energy weapons, and overriding automatic shutdown? is it.... an explosion?

Or... is that an heat exploit, in a GAME einstien says.. 'Acha.... acha...

No its not an explosion, the mech shuts down, you can only override the shutdown up to a point and then its lights out. Then feel free to shoot the sitting still target that can't reply because the pilot didn't know how to manage heat.

[Teralitha]

Really... so in classic BT, mechs didnt have a meltdown from overheating... if that is the case, its still not balanced for an online game. Splash damage is a balancing factor in an online version of classic BT. It worked great in MW4, no reason it will be any different here.

Edited by Teralitha, 09 June 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Kazzamo]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Really... so in classic BT, mechs didnt have a meltdown from overheating...if that is the case, its still not balanced for an online game. Splash damage is a balancing factor in an online version of classic BT. It worked great in MW4

Nope. At one point no matter what your mech shut down on you. Core bombs isn't the same as splash damage.. splash damage is from any area effect. Artillery strikes, LRM swarms, air strikes. If you stand in those then yeah you deserve to get hit. But no, core bombs were added in the games because the hollywood mentality is everything must explode. That has nothing to do with balance or battletech.

Edited by Kazzamo, 09 June 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Teralitha]

Kazzamo, on 09 June 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Nope. At one point no matter what your mech shut down on you.

And then what... it restarts with no penatly? Seems kinda lame to me... it resembles the heat bug ppl used in MW4, only if they kept doing it for too long they would explode. Its logical, and it balances things out.

Despite your reasons for not wanting explosions, which I totally understand, I dont think you understand balance in an online mechwarrior game. Splash damage has a balancing effect on the game.

Edited by Teralitha, 09 June 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

And then what... it restarts with no penatly? Seems kinda lame to me... it resembles the heat bug ppl used in MW4, only if they kept doing it for too long they would explode. Its logical, and it balances things out.

If you consider being unable to move or fire, becoming a sitting duck target (that if IIRC gave the person shooting at it a positive modifier to hit) no penalty, then my hat off to you. I'm pretty sure whoever you were shooting at until you shutdown will think its just awesome though that your know completely helpless to whatever they want to do. Like walk behind you and blow through your rear armor while you imitate a statue.

[Kazzamo]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

And then what... it restarts with no penatly? Seems kinda lame to me... it resembles the heat bug ppl used in MW4, only if they kept doing it for too long they would explode. Its logical, and it balances things out.

Despite your reasons for not wanting explosions, which I totally understand, I dont think you understand balance in an online mechwarrior game. Splash damage has a balancing effect on the game.

In the TT one of the penalties for heat is it can set off your ammo. But in your example you mentioned a pure energy weapon mech. So yes, aside from the point that you're completely helpless and at the mercy of any enemy that might be near you nope no penalty at all.

But explain how core nukes are a balance thing? What do they balance. If anything they break balance. All short ranged weapons become a worthless crapshoot since you could end up killing yourself for using any of them. It'd make the entire game switch into everybody purely using long range weapons.

[Teralitha]

Kazzamo, on 09 June 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

In the TT one of the penalties for heat is it can set off your ammo. But in your example you mentioned a pure energy weapon mech. So yes, aside from the point that you're completely helpless and at the mercy of any enemy that might be near you nope no penalty at all.

But explain how core nukes are a balance thing? What do they balance. If anything they break balance. All short ranged weapons become a worthless crapshoot since you could end up killing yourself for using any of them. It'd make the entire game switch into everybody purely using long range weapons.

Ill try to explain, basing this off my MW4 experience... mech explosions had a few effects on the game... 1, if you were piloting your mech so close to your enemy that you got splashed when they blew up, it was a sign of poor piloting skill, and you learned from it, It encourged cautious play in a league match, where kill whoring would sometimes cause your teamate to die or take damage if you 'just had to get the killshot' over a teamate. Another sign of poor team skills, and you learned to work with your team to win without causeing friendly splash damage, plus it gave you negative points in after game scores... All things that would promote better piloting skills and a high level skilled play, stemmed from splash damage being in the game. I could really go more in depth on this alone but it would take forever there are so many minor effects on teamplay and personal piloting skill...

Core explosions also raised your awareness of heat managment, because not only could you shutdown, and be a prone target for a short time, but you could blow yourself up if you really pushed the envelope. This pushes players to be even more cautious, and raises the skill bar even higher. Without splash, you are dumbing down the skill factor of the game.

Now, on to suiciding.... In MW4, it was a legitimate tactic, it was never considered a way to grief, as just running around suiciding just made you look stupid. Players would just start legging you, and laughing as you limped to the nearst mech trying to suicide. How was it a legit tactic though? In a game of no respawn, a suicide served no purpose unless you were going to die anyway, and you wanted to do as much damage as possible to the enemy before you went out to help your team. It wasnt all that common, because most players were skilled enough pilots to keep their distance from enemy mechs to avoid splash, something they learned early on....

Now... in a game without splash damage... what do you think will happen... alot of players are going to end up clustered in a bunch ramming into each other and shooting away, tell me how this teaches people to pilot better? inb4...Im dubbing it the "noob cluster ****"

Earlier I said I would grief if there was no splash damage... here is how. I take a light mech, my friends take a light mech, we go up to enemy assault mech, and make a sandwich out of him. One in front, one in back, essentially trapping them. They cant move... you know what happens next? Team mates kill easy target assault who cant move and who cant fire at the 2 light mechs because they are underneath him. Assault mech goes down, 2 lights get away without a scratch except maybe some bump damage. Rinse and repeat. That is just off the top of my head.... I will come up with more ways later.

Another way to grief in a light mech, vs assaults, is to run up behind them, and and just keep ramming into their rear, and shooting them in back. Assault mech goes down, I move on to the next... no skill involved in this tactics, any noob can do it, and I can bet you dollars to donuts it will get old fast to those poor noob assault pilots, and the forums will light up the skies... there is little they could ever do agaisnt this tactic. Now.. add in splash damage... and light mechs wont be doing this anymore cuz they wont want to die. Cures that exploit in a hurry....

Edited by Teralitha, 09 June 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[MadDokGrotsnik]

Any explosions would be from the uncontained heat of the reaction setting off any stored ammo/fuel before it burns itself out.

Also another thing to think of about that trailer from a while ago that someone brought up. If Mechs went nuclear (even tac-nuke scale) what would be the point of ejecting on a core breach you would just get vaporized about 1/10000 of a second later than if you had just stayed in your seat.

The actual point of ejecting is to protect the Mech pilot from any potential ammo explosions and from being barbecued in their own chair.

[Murphy7]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Earlier I said I would grief if there was no splash damage... here is how. I take a light mech, my friends take a light mech, we go up to enemy assault mech, and make a sandwich out of him. One in front, one in back, essentially trapping them. They cant move... you know what happens next? Team mates kill easy target assault who cant move and who cant fire at the 2 light mechs because they are underneath him. Assault mech goes down, 2 lights get away without a scratch except maybe some bump damage. Rinse and repeat. That is just off the top of my head.... I will come up with more ways later.

Your sandwich tactic will likely not work, and even so, that is a commitment of 3+ players to take out one mech, I would rather like the opposing team's chances of cleaning up on you lot.

The reason your tactic should not work, is that it has been stated that there will be Friendly Fire - I just don't like your chances of not getting shot by your own team, as well as getting obliterated by the target mech in question.

[Kazzamo]

Well friendly fire is in, so the same people that hug the enemy and got hit by the non-canon core nukes still have a much better chance of walking into the lasers or AC20 of a friendly. And for the sandwich, well there are a couple things. An assault might just be able to push your light mech out of the way, but even if not you'd have to assume said assault mech is traveling alone and any mech traveling alone will be easy prey for what are you using in your example, 3 mechs? But still if you're using almost a full lance on one mech that is leaving a lot of enemies free to hurt your outnumbered teammates elsewhere, or you know... the enemy has their scouts going to capture the base or spotting for fire support mechs rather than playing speedbump.

[Teralitha]

Murphy7, on 09 June 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Your sandwich tactic will likely not work, and even so, that is a commitment of 3+ players to take out one mech, I would rather like the opposing team's chances of cleaning up on you lot.

The reason your tactic should not work, is that it has been stated that there will be Friendly Fire - I just don't like your chances of not getting shot by your own team, as well as getting obliterated by the target mech in question.

Oh I have complete faith in my team to not hit me if I am ramming a bigger mech. I dont really need to have 2 others to do this. I can just ram an rear, that poor assault pilot will be helpless against it. Now, if HIS team tried to get me off his back... who is the bigger target hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? friendly fire LOL, love it. You wont realize the error of your ways until you see it happening in a real game. The best part is... its legal! inb4 random forum posts DEVS PLS STP THE NOOB RAMMING AHHHHH!!!!!! DEVS PLS ADD SPLASH DAMAGE AHHHHHHHHHHH LIGHT MECHS OP PLS NERF AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!

Edited by Teralitha, 09 June 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Kazzamo]

You know... ramming an assault with a light isn't the best idea... The assault can ram right back, it'd be a 80lb skin and bones runt sumo wrestling a pro.... Also... it's not that hard to aim down and shoot the ramming light in the rear.... the perspective from videos and screen shots make that pretty clear.

[Murphy7]

And somehow the only sane answer is have splash damage from exploding nuclear core breaches? Sure.

Yes, the friendly fire works both ways.. but your light tangled up the legs of an assault as per your example can less afford the stray hit than the assualt could.

But by all means, bring on the absurdity - seems more like a way for you to grief your own team than get anything useful done in game.

[Freyar]

Teralitha, on 09 June 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

.

Written like a true "elite".

Edited by Helmer, 09 June 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[LordDeathStrike]

Oswin Aurelius, on 09 June 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Agreed. Fusion cores don't "go nuclear".

Fusion reactors implode, causing a micro singularity that briefly exists severly dmging or destroying anything near it, when it collapses theres a vacuum near it that air rushes to fill making the mushroom cloud similar to nuclear detonations. theres no fallout from a fusion implosion but its massively destructive in a small area, compared to a nuclear weapon causing mech dmg in a wide area and massive poisenous fallout that fouls the ground for eons.

ps add a poll option for massive point blank dmg on core break fusion implosions. if youre dumb enough not to run away in a light or med, you deserve to die, heavy or assault kiss your armor good bye.

Edited by LordDeathStrike, 09 June 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Deathz Jester]

Friendly Fire Isnt


if a buddy goes "nuclear" next to me I should take damage regardless. The explosion doesn't go "OH HAI DER I WONT KILLZ U, CUZ U SAME TEEM"


I'd love to see how destructive this game can get.

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 09 June 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[DerMaulwurf]

LordDeathStrike, on 09 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Fusion reactors implode, causing a micro singularity that briefly exists severly dmging or destroying anything near it, when it collapses theres a vacuum near it that air rushes to fill making the mushroom cloud similar to nuclear detonations. theres no fallout from a fusion implosion but its massively destructive in a small area, compared to a nuclear weapon causing mech dmg in a wide area and massive poisenous fallout that fouls the ground for eons.

I am currently working on a Master degree in physics and this made me cringe.

edit: Make arguments based on gameplay or balance and if they are sound one can insert some technobabble that isn't utterly inane. But don't mangle the laws of nature, just because you can.

An example are Battletech's ridiculous weapon ranges. They make no sense technically, but the game got more fun than standoffs at kilometer scales, so they're in.

Edited by DerMaulwurf, 09 June 2012 - 10:27 PM.