158 replies to this topic

[Elysion]

In this games lore what generates the energy they used to run the fusion reactor in the first place?

[Crozekiel]

CCC Dober, on 10 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

If anything, these vids draw people into the game because of the entertainment value of said events.

Which is exactly what the videos were meant to do, nothing more. Seems like the smart move is to base a game around an established and long-standing rule set and lore than 30 seconds of cgi-crusty-wet-pants-stain.

Edited by Crozekiel, 10 June 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Frostiken]

Elysion, on 10 June 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

In this games lore what generates the energy they used to run the fusion reactor in the first place?

Do you mean start it up? From what I understand the reactor is almost always operating in a low-power standby state, as it's completely self-contained and barely sips any fuel. It can operate like this for decades.

I would imagine a cold reactor would have to be started from an external source to provide the initial Z-Pinch.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Elysion]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

From what I understand the reactor is always operating in a low-power standby state.

I would imagine a cold reactor would have to be started from an external source to provide the initial Z-Pinch.

Well thats just terrible. They could have provided a way to justify small explosions when a mech gets destroyed then.

[Frostiken]

Oswin Aurelius, on 10 June 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

...no, it doesn't. You're trying to say an imploding fusion reactor makes a mini-black hole then a mushroom cloud, with no fallout. You must be trolling, because none of those actually happen.

Frostiken, on 09 June 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

LordDeathStrike, on 09 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Fusion reactors implode, causing a micro singularity that briefly exists severly dmging or destroying anything near it, when it collapses theres a vacuum near it that air rushes to fill making the mushroom cloud similar to nuclear detonations. theres no fallout from a fusion implosion but its massively destructive in a small area, compared to a nuclear weapon causing mech dmg in a wide area and massive poisenous fallout that fouls the ground for eons.

ps add a poll option for massive point blank dmg on core break fusion implosions. if youre dumb enough not to run away in a light or med, you deserve to die, heavy or assault kiss your armor good bye.

You would be correct, if fusion reactors in Battletech had so much reactant in them that they contained themselves under their own gravity.

When a star can no longer provide enough fusion output to hold up its own weight, it implodes and collapses in on itself. When the implosion hits the center, all of its mass and momentum from the collapse can indeed crush to a singularity, at which point the implosion rebounds, and the tremendous energy of the collapse causes an explosion of unimaginable proportions.

Seeing as how the fusion in a mech's rector is not supported by gravity, and thus does not obliterate the entire landmass it's currently in, none of this would happen.

[Dragon Lady]

Lightfoot, on 10 June 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Well ok, but you are talking to the wrong person. You need to speak with FASA, Microprose, PGI, and all the other game developers and writers who keep throwing 'Mech Core Breach explosions into the MechWarrior lore. And all I have ever said is that it could be a random occurance in MWO to enhance the roleplay. That's how they pitch it in the lore, an unusual, but possible event. And it wouldn't hurt, "brawling", it never did in MW4 and 'mechs always caused splash damage in that one.

One thing to keep in mind is that every single sourcebook and novel in the game was written as if it was in universe. That is, when you read the original Technical Readout 3025, you are reading a book that was written in 3025, in the Battletech Universe. In addition, nearly every single sourcebook is written by Comstar, so you know it's accurate.

If you are reading a Battletech novel, then what you're reading is a 31st century techno-thriller, that may or may not reflect reality in the Battletech Universe. Michael A. Stackpole's Pinto-esque Battlemechs are no more accurate to BT's reality than shooting the gas tank of the car causes an explosion in real life.

The only thing that wasn't written as if it was in universe are the actual game rulebooks. And they clearly read: 1st critical engine hit: +5 heat/turn. 2nd critical engine hit: +10 heat/turn. 3rd critical engine hit: shutdown. 1st critical ammo hit: BOOM

[Oswin Aurelius]

I see I somehow missed your post, Frostiken. Nice science!

[UncleKulikov]

No damage to follow canon. The fusion core shuts down when too damaged, resulting in no explosion.

[Krubarax]

Page 9
Total Warfare:



Note: The BATTLETECH cartoon, MM4 intro video and the promo video of the abandoned "MW5" are all concidered Fiction or art in this matter. They should NOT be concidered rules or canon

Fusion reactors do not go nuklear.
They do not expload, as there is nothing in them to cause an explosion and such explosions are not neccesary for gameplay or balance.
MW2 and MW3 did FINE without them.

If - however unlikely, you are piloting an Assault, and four light Mechs box you in, and you would not be able to fight them, because you are too high (assuming that you can not bend over, or lower your arms or simply push them away( then you really have to salute your enemies, for making a ludacris tactic work, and blame your ***** team-mates for not helping you out.
Or, blame your self, for wandering off alone in an Assault, without the support of your team.

Seyla

Edited by GB Krubarax, 10 June 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

mercenarie, on 10 June 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

And that's how I imagine the mech explosion

What does this video have to do with this entire threads subject? LRMs fly into the hangar, hit something volatile (maybe ammo) in the back that causes a huge explosion, and some mechs get taken out Michael Bay style. A core breach wasn't even shown for any of those mechs that got caught in the blast. As far as light mechs humping an assaults legs, we do not know yet what the firing arc of the assault is so we don't even know if that is possible. It could be a light mech runs up to an Atlas close to its legs, the Atlas then bends over and blows the light mech away with an AC/20 shot. Oh and suffers heavy damage or dies if the light mech goes nuclear. Way to reward that light mech pilot for a stupid move in piloting.

Oh and watch in the video when the female mechwarrior gets taken out. That level of flame and smoke and the machine crashing to the ground, with even some debris spraying out, is perfectly fine for me when a mech gets killed. Or when the main mechwarrior makes his last stand and gets taken out, again a perfectly nice flaming crash with fiery shrapnel. Why do we need to start adding mushroom clouds.

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 10 June 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Skylarr]

GB Krubarax, on 10 June 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Page 9
Total Warfare:



Note: The BATTLETECH cartoon, MM4 intro video and the promo video of the abandoned "MW5" are all concidered Fiction or art in this matter. They should NOT be concidered rules or canon

Fusion reactors do not go nuklear.
They do not expload, as there is nothing in them to cause an explosion and such explosions are not neccesary for gameplay or balance.
MW2 and MW3 did FINE without them.

If - however unlikely, you are piloting an Assault, and four light Mechs box you in, and you would not be able to fight them, because you are too high (assuming that you can not bend over, or lower your arms or simply push them away( then you really have to salute your enemies, for making a ludacris tactic work, and blame your ***** team-mates for not helping you out.
Or, blame your self, for wandering off alone in an Assault, without the support of your team.

Seyla

The cartoons and Video games are considered Non-Canon.

Fusion Engine
Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion".

In TT there is a 27.2727% chance that a Mech Blows up every time it looses 4 Engine crit slot. The THERMAL EXPLOSION only goes out 90 meters from the Mech. The farther away you the smaller the amount of damage you take. The 2nd edition gave allot of damage. In ToW it is not that much.

A standard Fusion engine takes up 6 Crit sots in the Center Torso.
An IS XL Fusion Engine takes up 12 Crit Slots. 3 in each Side Torso (Right, Left) and 6 in the Center Torso
A CLan XL Fusion Engine takes up 10 Crit Slot. 2 in each Side Torso (Right, Left) and 6 in the Center Torso

[Skylarr]

I did not vote You need an option for "Moderate and Minor Damage based on proximity, with NO Sensor interruption."

[Remorce]

I personally don't give a damn about canon. Yes, it goes on and on and on about how the safety measures usually work. But what about the small chance that it doesn't? What if, and bear with me here,the almighty canon technology fails and the reactor gets a little out of hand. As in shielding is gone, which allows the generated heat from the reactor to then cook off all the ammo inside of the mech, or just rupture and immediately go out. Yes, it said that the temperature would drop rapidly in the wiki article, but just how rapid is rapid?

[Skylarr]

Remorce, on 10 June 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I personally don't give a damn about canon. Yes, it goes on and on and on about how the safety measures usually work. But what about the small chance that it doesn't? What if, and bear with me here,the almighty canon technology fails and the reactor gets a little out of hand. As in shielding is gone, which allows the generated heat from the reactor to then cook off all the ammo inside of the mech, or just rupture and immediately go out. Yes, it said that the temperature would drop rapidly in the wiki article, but just how rapid is rapid?

Canon does not say it cannot happen. It say it can happen. It is not a nuclear explosion. it is a thermal explosion. There is allot of shrapnel with it and that is what cause the damage. Like a boiler exploding inside a small building. unprotected infantry (including ejected Mechwarriors) would die instantly. Everything else take damage.

Edited by Skylarr, 10 June 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[Hanged Man]

Frostiken, on 09 June 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Better yet, let's not have random Stackpoling at all.

This. It's nothing but a hassle.

[Skylarr]

Hanged Man, on 10 June 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

This. It's nothing but a hassle.

Some player will like to see a mech go boom and some will not.

[Diplominator]

No proximity damage at all would be great. It doesn't fit the BattleTech universe since that's not how their engines work, and IMO it's an annoying gameplay mechanic besides. I'd maybe be okay with taking proximity damage when ammo gets hit or cooks off from heat, but only within a very small radius.

Skylarr, on 10 June 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Some player will like to see a mech go boom and some will not.

I'm fine with seeing a 'Mech go boom. I'm less fine with having my Atlas crippled because some pissant little Jenner ran right up next to me when he realized he was doomed. Suicide bombing was IMO a pretty obnoxious part of MW4.

[Skylarr]

diplominator, on 10 June 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

No proximity damage at all would be great. It doesn't fit the BattleTech universe since that's not how their engines work, and IMO it's an annoying gameplay mechanic besides. I'd maybe be okay with taking proximity damage when ammo gets hit or cooks off from heat, but only within a very small radius.

Several players have said "This not how the engine Works". Every Novel says that the Fusion Engine can explode, Several Games also say that the Fusion Engine can explode, The TT (were is all started) state that the Fusion Engine can Explode. So were does everyone get the info that it cannot happen?

[Leskon]

Kazzamo, on 10 June 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Wrong. "A BattleMech's fusion engine can usually last for decades on a few kilograms of hydrogen. Unlike the research reactors of the real world, a Battlemech's fusion engine runs on "light" hydrogen, protium, rather than hydrogen's heavier isotopes deuterium and/or tritium."

"Sun, like most stars, is a main-sequence star, and thus generates its energy by nuclear fusion of hydrogen nuclei into helium."

Then : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle


fiction: http://www.sarna.net...i/Fisson_Engine


real-world: http://www.ipp.mpg.d...on21/index.html
http://www.ipp.mpg.d...jekt/index.html

it "will" be the first functional reaktor (international projekt) http://www.ipp.mpg.d...iter/index.html

There are some papers on this page (but i found them only in german) they explain detailed about the fusion reaktor, the typs and the physiks.


But it is a game and i think that a small explosion of an huge mech would be nice (not all the time , but under some circumstances)

Edited by Leskon, 11 June 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Skylarr, on 11 June 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Several players have said "This not how the engine Works". Every Novel says that the Fusion Engine can explode, Several Games also say that the Fusion Engine can explode, The TT (were is all started) state that the Fusion Engine can Explode. So were does everyone get the info that it cannot happen?

You know having read nearly all of the novels even going back to Sword and Dagger, I'm having a hard time remembering when a fusion engine went critical. Even in the Stackpole books, the only time I can remember this was when Kai Allard-Liao intentionally set up his fusion reactor to go critical during the Twycross fight, which is why the OPTIONAL rules for fusion engines exploding (after it explains that they don't) are referred to as 'Stackpoles.' I honestly can not remember another scene where a fusion engine goes nuclear in any other book. Please list the other examples for me.

We also see jump jets used as a blowtorch to melt a Daishis cockpit and other 'hero' moments in the novels that are not part of TT rules, are we going to include all of them as well. There was a short story in Shrapnel that had an infantry unit cook a mech in cake batter, maybe that should show up as well.