158 replies to this topic

[Dragon Lady]

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 June 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

You know having read nearly all of the novels even going back to Sword and Dagger, I'm having a hard time remembering when a fusion engine went critical. Even in the Stackpole books, the only time I can remember this was when Kai Allard-Liao intentionally set up his fusion reactor to go critical during the Twycross fight, which is why the OPTIONAL rules for fusion engines exploding (after it explains that they don't) are referred to as 'Stackpoles.' I honestly can not remember another scene where a fusion engine goes nuclear in any other book. Please list the other examples for me.

IIRC, there was one during Justin Allard's match with Billy Wolfson, one during the Kell Hound's first battle on Pacifica (an Awesome, who's flying arm destroyed a Panther), the aftermath of one was described (the only thing left were the legs) after the second battle on Pacifica, one when Patrick Kell's Victor was destroyed at the Styx system, one during the battle for New Freedom, Andy Redburn's 'Mech goes critical during the battle with the Goliaths, I seem to remember several during the battles with the Death Commandos (both real and Comstar's fakes), the aftermath of several were described as the Genyosha approach the location for Minobu Kurita's duel with Morgan Kell...

And that was what I remembered from first three books.

[Randalf Yorgen]

we used to do it like this, assume the CT had 1 point outer armor left at the fire phase, If the entire internal structure was destroyed in a single round with damage points left over then all the internal slots were also taken out. You would roll on the crit table and if you rolled 3 crits then the damage was too severe and the overides didn't have a chance to kick in and the casing was destroyed. This led to an imediate local area massive explosion. same hex or touching hex took engine rating damage amount of damage in groups of five spread over the entire mech, next ring of hexes out took 50%, nrxt ring out took 20% and last ring out took 5%. So that covered 4 rings of hexes plus the hex that was ground zero. Ground zero and ring 1 took 15 heat, ring 2 took 8 heat and three took 3 heat. prety simple, not for everyone, but it did allow for that "OMFG" moment.

[Gunman5000]

As mentioned many other times the Fusion cores do not go critical very often, and even when they do its not a nuclear type explosion, its typically just a shockwave of rapidly expanding air (from the sudden and immense superheating that occurs when it contacts the plasma in the reaction chamber) so I voted that there should be no damage. However in the interest of gameplay/ my own desire to see wonderful explosions I think it would be good to have a small chance of a serious explosion if a reactor is actually breached. If they do implement damaging explosions from reactors going critical it should do damage based on proximity and possibly overload sensors in close proximity (I know its a video game but all the same I'm not sure how you could explain the sensor overload semi-realistically).

[Leskon]

Gunman5000, on 11 June 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

I know its a video game but all the same I'm not sure how you could explain the sensor overload semi-realistically

In the core are electron movement and more then 28 mega Ampere tension. Do you know how a antenna works

[grimzod]

Lightfoot, on 09 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Some players new to MechWarrior have asked about Friendly Fire and why will MWO use Friendly Fire=On as a default setting and maybe a fixed setting. It occurred to me that Splash Damage from nearby explosions is also usually set to On in MechWarrior games, so probably will be in MWO. And, of course when your 'mech is next to a 'mech that suffers a core breach resulting in a fusion explosion there could be alot of splash damage.

So a good question to ask is how much damage?

I should add that I am guessing that 'mechs will sometimes have a core breach on defeat in MWO as would happen in previous MechWarrior games.

I dont see total destruction in your poll. Your poll is flawed. If a light/med or damaged heavy/assault mech is caught close to a core breach he too can die and breach and so on - daisy chain core breaches are lovely. Why isn't this in your poll?

Edited by grimzod, 11 June 2012 - 04:56 AM.

[GHQCommander]

1st and 5th are the same answer really.

What wouldn't be based on proximity is pieces of debris going flying and hitting a mech. I doubt the explosion will be so complex though so it will all be done with the distance and matchs.

Mech veterans don't want any changes but I would have the option to eject ammo or even weapons OR when my mech is a mess and I'm close to an enemy mech just let her blow to cause major damage. This would encourage players to keep distance which requires more shooting skills = longer battles.

The younger generation today will expect such ability. Leave the canon fans to explain to them on the forums and maybe to their own kids why the game is so basic. It is, it is no different really than 20 years ago and gamers are far more intellectual plus agile than they were.

This whole explosion thing, ammo cooking and so on is another argument that raises this issue of the gaming living in the past for the sake of old folk trying to re-live their teen fun times. I hope to hell the developers have a plan to make this game for the kids who will be ten years old in five years time.

[Skylarr]

Gunman5000, on 11 June 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

As mentioned many other times the Fusion cores do not go critical very often, and even when they do its not a nuclear type explosion, its typically just a shockwave of rapidly expanding air (from the sudden and immense superheating that occurs when it contacts the plasma in the reaction chamber) so I voted that there should be no damage. However in the interest of gameplay/ my own desire to see wonderful explosions I think it would be good to have a small chance of a serious explosion if a reactor is actually breached. If they do implement damaging explosions from reactors going critical it should do damage based on proximity and possibly overload sensors in close proximity (I know its a video game but all the same I'm not sure how you could explain the sensor overload semi-realistically).

The damage that all near by unit take is from the Shock Wave from the exploding unit unit. That is keeping it simple. We do not need to explain in exact details as to what is making up that Shock Wave. We do not need to bring in that there may be a smal radiation leak, that will only effect infantry and will slow the game down.

Leskon, on 11 June 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

In the core are electron movement and more then 28 mega Ampere tension. Do you know how a antenna works

I can see your point that there may be a momentary interference in the electronics of the surrounding Mechs.

grimzod, on 11 June 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I dont see total destruction in your poll. Your poll is flawed. If a light/med or damaged heavy/assault mech is caught close to a core breach he too can die and breach and so on - daisy chain core breaches are lovely. Why isn't this in your poll?

The amount of damage output would depend on the engine rating. An Assualt Mech may not care, unless he has already received allot damage. A Light Mech would have to be allot more careful.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Dragon Lady, on 09 June 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Contrary to popular belief, reactors in the table top game don't blow up. They simply stop running. It's the ammo in a Battlemech that's the explosive component.

Mechs blowing up after being taken out of the battle (derisively called Stackpoling after a prolific BT author who just loved blowing up 'Mechs) was added to later Mechwarrior videogames because explosions are "cool."

Yeah, this.
So I voted no.

[cipher]

I voted for the currently winning selection (mod/minor damage with sensor interruption based on proximity) to be true to Mechwarrior and balance with online gamplay. This is for a reactor breach, not a disabled mech, legged mech, etc.

However...

I foresee this being abused by griefers. So Piranha, will there be a system in-place to curb bad behavior such as TKing and intentional team damaging like this?

Edited by cipher, 11 June 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Steelo]

Frankly if something is going to go nova and you are foolish enough to stand right beside it , be it ally or enemie, i agree that there should be dmg taken based on proximity, the aoe doesn't have to be large of the blast but if you are say right ontop of the blast, i would say one would take at least moderate dmg , when mechs expload its no small amount of energy.

[ltmyndonos]

i've always liked the possibility of engine failure with an explosion, but I've always pictured it more like a Gran Prix or Formula 1 car's engine going kaput. Not really an explosion, but parts DO fly around. And when parts fly around ammo, you get a boom. The more ammo, the more boom. The more damage to the armor/casing, the more the boom spreads. If no ammo, no boom. I'm not saying its cannon, just the way I've always thought of it in my head.
As for "Stackpoling", it made a great story, no? Thank you, Michael for drawling many a reading into the Battletech series.(with all your input to the series, I'm pretty sure you are lurking here)

[Mercules]

Ugh... The things just don't go "nuclear".

I suppose all those voting for the explosions think that cars and helicopters blow up when they hit objects or are shot with a single bullet too?

[Lightfoot]

grimzod, on 11 June 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I dont see total destruction in your poll. Your poll is flawed. If a light/med or damaged heavy/assault mech is caught close to a core breach he too can die and breach and so on - daisy chain core breaches are lovely. Why isn't this in your poll?

Okay, I'll add it, it was just that I get the general feeling most players would feel cheated if they lost a 'mech and match in this way. So, I don't think the Devs would include 'mech death from proximity to a core breach even if everyone on the forum wanted it. In some previous MechWarrior games the 'mech would just take more severe armor damage, but never be destroyed by it.

[ZnSeventeen]

I really just want sensor disruption! Not a lot, just enough to make it so you can "feel" that another mech has gone critical nearby, and has had an armored multi tesla magnetic field released. In fact, I would like slight sensor disruption every time a critical hit occurs on an engine. Would be stylish. But I am not seeing real damage occurring in anything but the rarest cases. And besides, I think realistically, real damage would have made mechs that use physical weaponry far less common, since they would blow themselves up a reasonable portion of the time.

[Frostiken]

I want sensor disruption too, but I want it as a feature of sensor warfare, not a gimmicky exploding mech.

[ltmyndonos]

Mercules, on 11 June 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Ugh... The things just don't go "nuclear".

I suppose all those voting for the explosions think that cars and helicopters blow up when they hit objects or are shot with a single bullet too?

Im not saying that(though other may be). All I am saying is that I can see a Mech explosion in the realms of possibility. You dont see Formula 1 cars fracturciding every race, only when they have a critical failure and the safeties didn't kick in. Being as these Mechs are armored, it would be even harder to happen, but it would not be out of the realm of possibilies.

[Mercules]

ltmyndonos, on 11 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Im not saying that(though other may be). All I am saying is that I can see a Mech explosion in the realms of possibility. You dont see Formula 1 cars fracturciding every race, only when they have a critical failure and the safeties didn't kick in. Being as these Mechs are armored, it would be even harder to happen, but it would not be out of the realm of possibilies.

True, but it should happen so rarely that we don't need Developers and QA wasting time coding and testing it to be in the game.

[Lightfoot]

Mercules, on 11 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

True, but it should happen so rarely that we don't need Developers and QA wasting time coding and testing it to be in the game.

I don't think so. FASA and game developers have been throwing 'Mech Core Breach explosions into the game, game intros, novels, etc., for so long it's part of the roleplay imagery that comes to most people's minds when they think of MechWarrior. So if they actually experience this event during gameplay every once in a while it reinforces the RP world of MechWarrior in what is really an unobtrusive way. Never underestimate the value of roleplay elements in an MMORPG.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Dragon Lady, on 11 June 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

IIRC, there was one during Justin Allard's match with Billy Wolfson, one during the Kell Hound's first battle on Pacifica (an Awesome, who's flying arm destroyed a Panther), the aftermath of one was described (the only thing left were the legs) after the second battle on Pacifica, one when Patrick Kell's Victor was destroyed at the Styx system, one during the battle for New Freedom, Andy Redburn's 'Mech goes critical during the battle with the Goliaths, I seem to remember several during the battles with the Death Commandos (both real and Comstar's fakes), the aftermath of several were described as the Genyosha approach the location for Minobu Kurita's duel with Morgan Kell...

And that was what I remembered from first three books.

First three books? Those sound like they all came from the Warrior trilogy, which were not the first three BT novels. Pluse the trilogy was written by Stackpole which is why engine breaches as an optional rule are referred to as 'stackpoles'. In the Gray Death novels, Wolves on the Border, and Sword and Dagger (the novels that came before the Warrior trilogy) I don't believe a single mech going nuclear is ever mentioned. Even for Stackpole, after that series, he 'cut back', with the only one in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy being the aforementioned Kai Allard-Liao Twycross bomb. In all his books after that (plus Coleman's books and all the other authors) mechs get destroyed but don't go up in mushroom clouds.

Honestly even if every single novel had every mech that was destroyed going out with a core breach, I still wouldn't want it in the game. BT has always had close quarters fights between mechs, with some designs made for this. The Hunchback is a perfect example, since its med. lasers and AC/20 have a range of 270 meters. Its whole purpose is to get up close and bring the pain. The Atlas as well, since its weapons (save for the LRM 20) also range out to 270 meters. Some designs are just meant to get up close and in your face (lets not even bring up the Hatchetman or Axman who are melee designs.) Looking at the different videos available of gameplay so far, ranges can close very fast, so giving mechs a random chance to go nova would just result in player frustration and anger at dying when they got the victory and defeated their opponent.