50 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

dimstog, on 03 July 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

I find it very annoying as the OP that when you fall from any height, your mech goes to zero. It is counter intuitive, but I believe that is only because you think of your mech walking and acting as a mere metal human body.

It is not. It is a metallic, articulated machine that follows slightly different rules when moving.

To better associate with that, imagine walking or running, then stepping over a one foot ledge. No matter what you do, the moment you touch ground, you will decrease your speed. In fact, it's because of your momentum, that your legs will decrease your speed but compensate by another couple of steps forward to minimize the stress on your knees (absorbing the extra kinetic energy from the fall) before you start moving forward again at your previous rate. To better accentuate the feeling, put on a very heavy backpack on your back. You will know what I am talking about if your ever have gone camping, with a backpack on your back, even getting down from small ledges is suddenly a thought process. In fact, you find it more difficult to continue moving forward after stepping off the ledge and you are more actively trying to stop yourself before continuing forward. The only reason you continue to move forward after that is to minimize the stress on your musculoskeletal system. If the load is big enough, you essentially stumble after every little ledge.

In fact, the proverbial "hit the ground running" is much more difficult than "hit the ground flexing your knees to absorb the fall".

Now let's look at a mech. It has knees, but they are made of metal and it has muscle like devices. They are mechanical, they have a breaking point but they do not feel pain. The easiest way to connect with the ground after falling from a height is to steadily plant the mech in the ground, absorbing all energy in the "knees", calf and thigh "muscles". As long as the forces exerted do not exceed the breaking point of those components, this is the most effective and easy way to stabilize. Since mechs carry a lot of weaponry (a very large backpack) the only way to stabilize after falling from a height, is stop themselves, then continue forward. It's counter intuitive, but only when you picture the mech as a simple person, if you picture it as a soldier carrying a backpack and machine gun and a helmet and several pounds of ammo, suddenly the intuition changes.

I totally agree on JJs giving forward and not just upward thrust though.

Unfortunately, for your scenario, and the way it works right now in game, you would fall flat on your face if you tried to stop "dead" on landing, while you are moving forward at a modest clip. Inertia is a *****.

Edited by Kunae, 03 July 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Demuder]

Kunae, on 03 July 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Unfortunately, for your scenario, and the way it works right now in game, you would fall flat on your face if you tried to stop "dead" on landing, while you are moving forward at a modest clip. Inertia is a *****.

Uhm, it's not my scenario, it's how the world works. And right now, in the game, you are doing exactly that, you stop "dead" on landing - without falling flat on your face. What is your point ?

[Inkarnus]

this tread is like remove skill give alpha boating to me
oh wait

[Kunae]

dimstog, on 03 July 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Uhm, it's not my scenario, it's how the world works. And right now, in the game, you are doing exactly that, you stop "dead" on landing - without falling flat on your face. What is your point ?

My point, from the OP onwards is that it shouldn't happen that way. Have you not been reading?

Your inertia should keep you moving forwards. You shouldn't stop dead, as is currently in-game. That's the point of this whole post.

[MaddMaxx]

I just assumed it was the Gryos transitioning from one mode, basic flight mode, back to ground movement mode. You ever jump off a staircase? once while moving, versus a standing jump? Try it and see how you land in both cases. One will require a roll out or lots of room to regain your standing motion, the other leaves you stopped until you re-initiate your forward motion again.

[Shae Starfyre]

I do not agree with this, I think it working fine save the part where you get stuck.

When you come down from a long burn, your momentum is down, not forward.

[Kazly]

I've had a problem with this for a long time. Take the spider for instance. What is it, a 30 ton mech? A 30 ton mech, at 150kph hits jump jets.

1. Mech starts to rise

2. Speed drops to about 130kph

3. You let go of jump jets and land

3. Your speed instantly goes from 130kph, in a 30 ton mech, to 0.

Now, I would think this mech could take it in step and keep moving, at least at half a speed....but hitting zero, wouldn't the mech fall flat on its face??

Remove this feature.

Aphoticus, on 03 July 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

I do not agree with this, I think it working fine save the part where you get stuck.

When you come down from a long burn, your momentum is down, not forward.

From a long high jump, sure, I get it. But this happens on most jumps regardless of my speed. I rarely hit those 'long' jumps.

[Kazly]

dimstog, on 03 July 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Uhm, it's not my scenario, it's how the world works. And right now, in the game, you are doing exactly that, you stop "dead" on landing - without falling flat on your face. What is your point ?

I think, reading your scenario, there there is a lot more to just absorbing impact that needs to be accounted for. Your velocity, mass, angle, etc. need to be all taken into account.

I'd just like to see less 'stops' on short hops. I barely lift my spider off the ground, and my speed goes from 150 to zero, with a very low angle of descent.

[Cycleboy]

MaddMaxx, on 03 July 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I just assumed it was the Gryos transitioning from one mode, basic flight mode, back to ground movement mode. You ever jump off a staircase? once while moving, versus a standing jump? Try it and see how you land in both cases. One will require a roll out or lots of room to regain your standing motion, the other leaves you stopped until you re-initiate your forward motion again.

Ok... a "hard landing", like a human falling 6 feet with a running jump,has to slow considerably to absorb the downward momentum. Got it. Now... how about you tell my running backs that jumping over a diving linebacker, gaining about 18"-26" in verticle height (similar to terrain skimming over rough patches) means they have to stop dead before accelerating again. The slow-down mechanic needs to be based on landing velocity... as one poster said... perfect feathering into a light landing =/= stopping.

[Ransack]

even when he lands he keeps moving forward, but multi-ton 'Mechs do not.


Please fix

Edited by Ransack, 03 July 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Demuder]

Kunae, on 03 July 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

My point, from the OP onwards is that it shouldn't happen that way. Have you not been reading?

Your inertia should keep you moving forwards. You shouldn't stop dead, as is currently in-game. That's the point of this whole post.

Kazly, on 03 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

I think, reading your scenario, there there is a lot more to just absorbing impact that needs to be accounted for. Your velocity, mass, angle, etc. need to be all taken into account.

I'd just like to see less 'stops' on short hops. I barely lift my spider off the ground, and my speed goes from 150 to zero, with a very low angle of descent.

Ah, now I understand.

Well, I can only imagine a hunk of metal (20 or 80 tons makes no difference, since it's the density that interests us) hitting the dirt, I don't see it bouncing, I see it digging in. Even if it crashed in denser ground, I think the ground is more prone to break up than give away.

Now adding the fact that the mech is articulated and has a shock absorbing system much like the human body has, I see it more easily absorbing its kinetic energy than just hitting the ground running.

Short hops would be nice, but still I can't imagine a mech doing it.

To be more precise, the only realistic scenario I see is the mech dropping and rolling like a paratrooper, but that would make an absolute mess of the mech, wouldn't it ? So we have to settle for something else I guess.

Anyway, as I said, I find stopping dead cold counter intuitive, but I don't think it's that far fetched. Add to that the totally unrealistic concept of jump jets (not in MWO, but in the lore in general) and the way the mech behaves when it lands is up to anyone's imagination.

Ransack, on 03 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

even when he lands he keeps moving forward, but multi-ton 'Mechs do not.
Please fix

Uhm.... when he lands... he crushes actually. You really want your mech to do that ?

Unless you mean he moves forward when takes those extra long jump-steps, which are not exactly a jump. Actually, it's a good video because it shows the extend of the body motion and control you need to keep balance with a human like body when you jump. Half the community went bananas with a little shake, can you imagine what would happen if someone makes a mech move like that ?

Edited by dimstog, 03 July 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Ransack]

dimstog, on 03 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ah, now I understand.

Well, I can only imagine a hunk of metal (20 or 80 tons makes no difference, since it's the density that interests us) hitting the dirt, I don't see it bouncing, I see it digging in. Even if it crashed in denser ground, I think the ground is more prone to break up than give away.

Now adding the fact that the mech is articulated and has a shock absorbing system much like the human body has, I see it more easily absorbing its kinetic energy than just hitting the ground running.

Short hops would be nice, but still I can't imagine a mech doing it.

To be more precise, the only realistic scenario I see is the mech dropping and rolling like a paratrooper, but that would make an absolute mess of the mech, wouldn't it ? So we have to settle for something else I guess.

Anyway, as I said, I find stopping dead cold counter intuitive, but I don't think it's that far fetched. Add to that the totally unrealistic concept of jump jets (not in MWO, but in the lore in general) and the way the mech behaves when it lands is up to anyone's imagination.



Uhm.... when he lands... he crushes actually. You really want your mech to do that ?

Unless you mean he moves forward when takes those extra long jump-steps, which are not exactly a jump. Actually, it's a good video because it shows the extend of the body motion and control you need to keep balance with a human like body when you jump. Half the community went bananas with a little shake, can you imagine what would happen if someone makes a mech move like that ?

OK, it is called a "Triple Jump" for a reason. Extra long steps? You must not know much track and field. From a run, you JUMP forward off of one foot. Then you JUMP forward off of the other and you land in the pit. That guy's crumple as you call it is from extending his legs for maximum distance on the landing. Had he chosen to land upright, I assure you that he wound NOT land at a dead standstill.

[Homeless Bill]

Bumping for great justice. Someone forward this.

[Gaan Cathal]

dimstog, on 03 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Anyway, as I said, I find stopping dead cold counter intuitive, but I don't think it's that far fetched. Add to that the totally unrealistic concept of jump jets (not in MWO, but in the lore in general) and the way the mech behaves when it lands is up to anyone's imagination.

Who gives a crap about far fetched? In a game where 30-45 point alphas are thrown around you can't have the weight end for whom speed and maneuverability is 90% of defense stop dead and have to re-accelerate because they stepped on a damn pebble.

[megoblocks]

NinetyProof, on 02 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

I don't think it's code to "make you stop" ... I think they fixed the code so that JJ's only give you upward lift. They don't apply carry-over-momentum at all.

The only reason a Mech moves forward, or backward, is because their feet are touching the ground and some sort of pressure is being applied. If the feet are no longer touching the ground, you will quickly lose forward (or backward) momentum. I believe what they did was to divest JJ's from having any effect what-so-ever on this momentum.

Uh, no. Not even close. A mech weighing even 20 tons is not going to slow down any significant degree due to air resistance

[Kunae]

megoblocks, on 03 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Uh, no. Not even close. A mech weighing even 20 tons is not going to slow down any significant degree due to air resistance

Yeah. So many folks don't seem to grok inertia.

[oldradagast]

The "zero speed on landing" code makes no sense. That's not how physics works, and while this is a game with giant robots, it feels so non-intuitive that it is worth revisiting and changing.

It's also a real nightmare when combined with the new movement code since jump jets now don't work as expected for climbing hills and have the added feature of being able to get you stuck in places you cannot escape. Great!

[Hell in a Helmet]

+1 - Fix it.

[Helsbane]

Since we now go slower uphill, why do we not go faster downhill? Or at least accelerate to top speed faster if pointed downhill?

Why do we stop at the end of a jump when our throttle is still at full power?

Why are handrails capable of stopping an AC20 round without taking damage?

Why am I on this island?

[oldradagast]

Helsbane, on 03 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Since we now go slower uphill, why do we not go faster downhill? Or at least accelerate to top speed faster if pointed downhill?

Why do we stop at the end of a jump when our throttle is still at full power?

Why are handrails capable of stopping an AC20 round without taking damage?

Why am I on this island?

I've often joked that my next mech will be armored in whatever the terrain is made of since it's indestructible, but now that a handrail is not only able to ignore an AC20 round but is able to stop an Atlas cold in its tracks, it has become even more important to finish this project.

A gun that shoots handrails, park benches, and small, cubical pebbles would be the ultimate weapon for boxing in enemy mechs these days!