43 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

General Taskeen, on 02 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

They had that for some mechs in Closed Beta, with stuff in the files, then they added a variant here and there at release as well. Either way, they should add the 9A, a lot less generic and more unique. Of course, there is always the full customization aspect that causes 'problems' too.

I'm almost comfortable saying that this chassis is properly "nerfed as intended™".

Edited by Deathlike, 02 July 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[meteorol]

Can you imagine the forum outcry if the put in the 9A?
2x Gauss, 2x PPC, (while being slow and somewhat vulnerable having a XL engine with a side torso gauss, depeding on hitboxes) with a 50 point pinpoint alpha (and much more alphas before overheating than the 4thelulz6ppc stalker)? It has quite some disadvantages, but 50 point longrage alpha without overheating after 2 shots would cause even more rage than there already is.

2 Gauss, 1 ER PPC, Same pinpoint alpha as the infamous 4 ppc Stalker but can fire forever without overheating and has no minimum range?

It would be the new premium sniper mech, doing the same thing as the 4ppc stalker, without fear of ever overheating or someone getting close and personal.
New FOTM mech outclassing the 4 ppc stalker as sniper mech?

Forum would go down in a glorious firestorm of flamethreads.
They saw this coming and didn't put in the 9A on purpose.

Edited by meteorol, 03 July 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

The problem, as stated a million times, is that with no hardpoint restrictions, you are gonna see more and more identical (save for the appearance/shape) 'mechs in the future. There's only a limited amount of reshuffling you can do with the given hardpoints, so it's not just that the Victor isn't unique enough, it's that too many 'mechs are not unique enough. Sure, there is always ONE or TWO (minor) differences, but overall there's too many duplicates and things are gonna get worse.

Quirks can help, and when they will become visible in the UI it will be easier to compare two 'mechs and say "hey, at least this has 10% better turn rate even though it has 8% less torso twist" and so on.

But the problem stands: without unique hardpoint restrictions you are not just making the mechlab a beautiful place for players to build their 'mechs in absolute freedom, you are actually pushing them into making the same two-three successful archetypes over and over, just with a different shape.

[Lightfoot]

The problem is the mechs are too fragile to allow AC40 mechs to run around, unless they are tubs like the K2 or Jagermech (when I say tub I mean they are slow) which are fragile by the time they get 2xAC20. Normally 2 20's are no big deal in MechWarrior and they are really only good in a City or close quarter enviornment. In a normal MechWarrior enviornment taking AC 20s to open maps gets you killed, usually before you get into range.

[Serra Angel]

@ meteorol if 2 x Gauss and 1 x ERPPC is so imba, why don't we se all these 3D running around with it? I think lefteye is absolutely right, it wouldn't make a big difference at all, the problem is the hardpoint restriction, as long as you can put a weapon of any size in every aprobiate slot, we will never see an 9A / 9A1 ....which dissapoints me really.

Edited by Serra Angel, 03 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Serra Angel, on 03 July 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

@ meteorol if 2 x Gauss and 1 x ERPPC is so imba, why don't we se all these 3D running around with it? I think lefteye is absolutely right, it wouldn't make a big difference at all, the problem is the hardpoint restriction, as long as you can put a weapon of any size in every aprobiate slot, we will never see an 9A / 9A1 ....which dissapoints me really.

3D running that wouldn't work too well (I think they barely have room for a medium laser after the ammo if you want any form of armor.

I stand corrected...2 Gauss, 1 ERPPC on a Cata-3D is possible, slow 52-57ish KPH, 5 tons of Ammo, 1 DHS and Endo with full Armor (minus a couple in the legs)...4 tons ammo if you want one JJ for getting around a little. Anything lower, Engine wise doesn't net anything useful as you end up putting it towards DHS.

What is that, 40 DPS on a slow Mech...is this better than the Jagger AC40?

...goes out and starts mastering the 3D

Edited by Aphoticus, 03 July 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[Finn McShae]

Dunno why everyone seems to thing AC/40 Jags are "slow" and "fragile". I run the same XL 265 or whatever when I'm running AC/20, or 2 Gauss, or 4 AC/5 or whatever. With tweak I am still somehwere in the 70's which I don't consider slow for a Heavy. Heck I don't even drop any armor, just swap guns.

Maybe I just like slow mechs?

[Ngamok]

Finn McShae, on 02 July 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Sooo.... in the era of no hardpoint restrictions and unlimited mechlab this could be unique how? Allowing 2 gauss + 1 ERPPC?

Seriously, unless it's a missile boat or has "fail" hardpoints NOTHING NEW WILL CHANGE THE GAUSS PPC META if it is large enough to mount them all. Period. End of story.

I'd love some ideas on how they can create "new" "unique" mechs with mindsets like above. Apart from the "holy grail" of a 2 Gauss Assault (I shudder at the thought) there's really nothing out there left.

Suggestions?

ILYA MUROMETS

[Finn McShae]

Ngamok, on 03 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

ILYA MUROMETS

Love it. Sadly I refuse to go this route yet, but I've been liking the dual AC/5, AC/10, with 3 MLAS. gets me a 30 alpha with some lasers at close range, works OK.

[Ngamok]

Finn McShae, on 03 July 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Love it. Sadly I refuse to go this route yet, but I've been liking the dual AC/5, AC/10, with 3 MLAS. gets me a 30 alpha with some lasers at close range, works OK.

Yea, mine is 2xGauss and 2xML for back up with a STD engine.

[Finn McShae]

Ngamok, on 03 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yea, mine is 2xGauss and 2xML for back up with a STD engine.

I built one of those the other day, looked at it for a while... then turned it back to my regular build. I just feel dirty not using that big cannon hardpoint in the chest. If they modeled it with changable hardpoints and I didn't have to look at the non-gun in mechlab I might be able to stomach it. That's just my obsession with things looking like they "should" though.

Edited by Finn McShae, 03 July 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Rigiroth]

For those saying this would be the end-all be all for sniping: remember that is still a walking billboard like its fatter brother.

Glass Cannon - The armor taken off is reasonable because no one would ever waste time attacking other components of the mech. Also note the Victor would only have 8 more Front torso hit points (From 46 to 54 with Rear torso at 14 on both).

Edited by Steemship, 03 July 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[Serra Angel]

Aphoticus, on 03 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

3D running that wouldn't work too well (I think they barely have room for a medium laser after the ammo if you want any form of armor.

I stand corrected...2 Gauss, 1 ERPPC on a Cata-3D is possible, slow 52-57ish KPH, 5 tons of Ammo, 1 DHS and Endo with full Armor (minus a couple in the legs)...4 tons ammo if you want one JJ for getting around a little. Anything lower, Engine wise doesn't net anything useful as you end up putting it towards DHS.

What is that, 40 DPS on a slow Mech...is this better than the Jagger AC40?

...goes out and starts mastering the 3D

That's exactly my point, a Victor has 10 tons more, if you would cramp in another ERPPC it's has the same problems like the 3D, armor not at max, limited ammo, only 10 HS (which is no prob with only one ERPPC, but a different thing with 2) and even slower then the 3D. So IMHO you would not see many Victor with 2x Gauss and 2 x ERPPC. A good range build would be 2 x Gauss and one ERPPC...or 2 x AC 20 and a couple of med lasers for brawling, nice load out, bot nothing that would make it totally unbalanced like predicted

[Odanan]

It is really sad the tastiest Victors are left behind. Well, I will certainly not buy any of this crappy variants if the VTR-9A and VTR-9A1 are not in.

This was what I predicted when the Victor concept art was announced:


Avoidind the dual Gauss/AC20 and the triple Gauss/AC20 variants just showed how the balance of the game is flawed. It's a shame they will limit the chassis instead of fixing the game.

BTW, I still want this, PGI (and there is still time to add it):

[John MatriX82]

Of course they shifted those two hardpoints from the legs in the right arm, otherwise this thing could have gone 3xGauss or AC 40, AC 30 or whatever else and that would have been totally unbalanced.. This because they don't realize we need some kind of hardpoint restriction system, so we'll keep having copycat mechs and everyone will go GR + 2 PPCs on this; in the meantime the hero is the only one that can add a third PPC and fancy a Misery or an HGN 732, this without occuring in their silly planned heat penalties..

[VikingN1nja]

Dual Gauss variant would be nice!

Edited by omegaorgun, 04 July 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Odanan]

omegaorgun, on 04 July 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Dual Gauss variant would be nice!

Of course it would! And triple gauss would really add something different to the game.

[warner2]

Lefteye, on 02 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

The problem, as stated a million times, is that with no hardpoint restrictions, you are gonna see more and more identical (save for the appearance/shape) 'mechs in the future. There's only a limited amount of reshuffling you can do with the given hardpoints, so it's not just that the Victor isn't unique enough, it's that too many 'mechs are not unique enough. Sure, there is always ONE or TWO (minor) differences, but overall there's too many duplicates and things are gonna get worse.

Quirks can help, and when they will become visible in the UI it will be easier to compare two 'mechs and say "hey, at least this has 10% better turn rate even though it has 8% less torso twist" and so on.

But the problem stands: without unique hardpoint restrictions you are not just making the mechlab a beautiful place for players to build their 'mechs in absolute freedom, you are actually pushing them into making the same two-three successful archetypes over and over, just with a different shape.

QFT

Extremely relevant in the wake of PGI's horrible heat scale penalty.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Carrioncrows, on 02 July 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Don't be an ***.

Yes, it's nothing unique.

Lets have some designs with 4-5 ballistics in the one arm, What about 3-4 energy in the other arms, Where are my torso mounted machineguns?

Everything that is remotely viable is doable on this mech.

Gauss: Check!
Multple Energy Hard points for PPC? Check!
Arm Mounted Energy? Check!
Jumpjets? Check!

Yes they will more than likely turn out be good mechs, but they are hardly unique.

I was at least looking forward to going fast with my AC20.....oh wait. Sorry but only 2 of the 4 designs will be able to do that. So what you can go fast with a Gauss rifle.....What can't these days?

The same old ******** just a different tonnage.

Don't mind me, I am just frustrated at the direction and unimaginative hard points. I am not looking for a magic trick, just something that makes each mech worthwhile.

Not being as A**, just stating a fact. And speaking to your direct complain here, this is Battletech. There is only so many weapons available. The uniquiness comes from the shape and size of the mech and its performance not from what weapons it mounts.

As far as the Victor, it is 100% unique. There is not one other mech out there that can offer remotely the same category of performace as a Victor. It can mount darn near the same firepower as an Atlas, run darn near as fast as a Dragon, be as almost as armored as Highlander and also Jump as well as a Cataphract 3D. No other mech can do this all in one package.

[Anjian]

I don't see anything wrong adding the 9A. The new Alpha build restrictions are there to allow adding more powerful mechs to the game without much consequence, since you have to spread out firepower into proper groups. Although Gauss doesn't generate much heat (it should actually, even for a small part), PGI can come up with an outrageous figure like they did to 2 x AC20.

Adding much firepower to the Victor also means you are going to sacrifice some mobility as well, either the jumpjets or go with the smaller engine. Two Gauss on the torso with XL engines also sounds risky bet for me.

Edited by Anjian, 21 July 2013 - 11:49 PM.