26 replies to this topic

[AntiCitizenJuan]

We now have this cool new element to the game where we can no longer traverse a significant amount of terrain across all maps. By cool, I mean completely awful, and a horrible design decision. I understand what PGI was shooting for, but what they did was not nerfing hill humpers, they nerfed mech movement. Which is bad. Very bad.

At the current state, if you are not rocking JJ's you're pretty SOL when it comes to moving up the majority of hills on the numerous maps that have hills. Yes JJ's should enhance map movement. But in the games current state you need JJ's to access some of the most basic paths mechs have been traversing to get to battle since closed beta.

That isnt good. More chokepoints is not good. Being unable to move past a 45 degree angle is blatantly laughable from a design standpoint. Not to mention the fact of players getting stuck in awkward positions, and the ability to simply zigzag to scale terrain up hills.

The idea of stopping at 45 degrees is bad because most of the maps are designed with numerous +45 degree angles (and not in places where PPC campers set up shop).


THE NITTY GRITTY

-At a 20 degree angle mechs begin to suffer reduced speed.
-At a 65 degree angle mechs are unable to move forward.

Now use a flat rate percentage for how much mechs decelerate when climbing.

Scout mechs can now scout again (WHO'D A THUNK IT)

All other mechs can now traverse the numerous basic paths on the map (Hello Tourmaline, Alpine) and Snipe campers will still be mostly unable to get to the high point sweet spots.

[Pariah Devalis]

Honestly, did not find it a problem. The problem I did find, however, was that certain parts of certain maps, like Tourmaline or by the tower on Forest Colony, there are areas your mech can get into where it is in the bottom of a small depression with 45 degree or steeper angles out on all sides. What this means is, once your mech gets in there, it cannot get out. Which is insanely frustrating, as you get turned into target practice.

The maps could use a pass or two to root out these sorts of terrain features. Other than that, I like how it breaks up the movement. Scaling things actually makes sense now.

[Sephlock]

Also, you can come to a dead stop due to pebbles in the road.

Overall, though, I like the change. It just needs some tweaking.

Pariah Devalis, on 02 July 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Honestly, did not find it a problem. The problem I did find, however, was that certain parts of certain maps, like Tourmaline or by the tower on Forest Colony, there are areas your mech can get into where it is in the bottom of a small depression with 45 degree or steeper angles out on all sides. What this means is, once your mech gets in there, it cannot get out. Which is insanely frustrating, as you get turned into target practice.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I'm sure a lot of people agree it's a change thats for the best. But definitely requires some kind of tweak, preferably more fast than it took them with ECM and SRMs and Boating and High Damage Alpha

[Pariah Devalis]

I think, ultimately, it is almost good enough. Almost. As in the good it brings far, far, far exceeds the bad. But, yeah, it could use a smidge optimization. I absolutely love how it makes you think before taking a hill or going the long way.

[Sephlock]

Also, I like the added element to the whole stalking-lights-in-my-dragon situation, especially when they have jump jets.

Of course, it's even better in my shiny new Victor...

[Tennex]

They relaly need to resolve the issue, that when a mech lands from jump jets, it has no momentum.

kind of stupid, and gets mechs stuck on edge of ledges.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

OMGOGZYZ! ITS WRITTEN IN STONE! IT CAN NEVER BE CHANGED NOW. ITS ALL OVER BUT THE CRYING!



jf( people!

[Arcturious]

Really enjoying the extra dimension it adds to the maps. Yes, a few more passes to fix all the minor issues will happen (pot holes, small rocks etc). On the whole though for a feature with such pervasive change and wide sweeping implications it has to be the smoothest release yet.

Compared to Artemis apocalypse, ECM etc etc this change has remarkably few issues and brings far more to the game than it takes away.

[Victor Morson]

I'd be far less ranty if I figured we'd get a hot fix for all the dead-stop stuff, moving it more towards a "Lights and mediums handle rough terrain faster & better" situation that I thought it'd be. But the problem is I've seen how bad weapon balance happens and I expect the game movement will be wrecked.

I am not exaggerating at all when I say that 2 different unrelated people are quitting the game until this is fixed because they can't stand abruptly getting stuck in fights.

[MischiefSC]

Stuck on pebbles and the base with the factory on Caustic is pretty much impassable for most assaults.

I'd agree with bumping incline reduction to 65 degrees and let mechs just step up onto anything less than knee high.

[One Medic Army]

Add code saying that once you're within X meters of the top of a feature, it stops counting.
No more stuck on pebbles, no more stopped on small hills, no more stuck on the edge of buildings.

[edit] And while you're at it, give jumpjets some forward impulse so people can use them to get unstuck, or jump up a hill without needing a running start.

Edited by One Medic Army, 02 July 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Training Instructor]

I don't like not being to get any forward momentum with JJ. On Alpine last night in my highlander there were some very small hills I couldn't even begin moving up unless I backed up, got a running start, and hit my JJs before the deadstop.

[The Cheese]

One Medic Army, on 02 July 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Add code saying that once you're within X meters of the top of a feature, it stops counting.
No more stuck on pebbles, no more stopped on small hills, no more stuck on the edge of buildings.

Far easier said than done. A much more likely fix would be to modify the maps so that any feature that is not intended to impede movement is either ignored by the mech entirely (for tiny pebbles, for example) or for larger features, have the model be non-obstructive and use the terrain underneath the feature for the climbing. That is, to have the models themselves not interact with the mechs at all, and create a small hill on the terrain underneath the model which will have climbable inclines.

Edited by The Cheese, 02 July 2013 - 10:59 PM.

[Victor Morson]

The Cheese, on 02 July 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Far easier said than done. A much more likely fix would be to modify the maps so that any feature that is not intended to impede movement is either ignored by the mech (tiny pebbles) or has a <45 degree incline (vehicles, boulders, etc) to all sides.

Going through and editing all the maps is a massive undertaking to fix a system that's basically broken and could be tweaked with numbers.

This is the worst possible approach to take.

[One Medic Army]

The Cheese, on 02 July 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Far easier said than done. A much more likely fix would be to modify the maps so that any feature that is not intended to impede movement is either ignored by the mech (tiny pebbles) or has a <45 degree incline (vehicles, boulders, etc) to all sides.

Yeah probably, not sure how the movement code in Cryengine 3 is.
Doing a complete pass on each and every map to remove issues would take the PGI guy in charge of that like a straight month though, possibly per map.
If there was some way to make the slowdown code less sensitive, perhaps give mechs a 0.25s wait timer before it kicked in so they could get over small bumps before stopping?

[Victor Morson]

One Medic Army, on 02 July 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

Yeah probably, not sure how the movement code in Cryengine 3 is.
Doing a complete pass on each and every map to remove issues would take the PGI guy in charge of that like a straight month though, possibly per map.
If there was some way to make the slowdown code less sensitive, perhaps give mechs a 0.25s wait timer before it kicked in so they could get over small bumps before stopping?

The thing is, we didn't have a problem with 'mechs getting into places they "weren't supposed to." We never have. 'mechs always felt like they could reasonably access every place on the map. So I have no idea what the point of disabling half the map is.

Now, again, performance changes on hills - that's got tons of potential. Mediums clearing hills that assaults take five times as long to crest would be really awesome, without changing the core stats. I'm a big fan of that idea. What we have is not that.

In the future, map makers could exploit this new mechanic by, say, doing a rolling hill kind of map. One where assaults would be bogged down a lot, and lights move. Heck, we could take this up a notch and start applying the same modifiers to water, so we could have things like swamp maps where assaults move far slower than lighter 'mechs.

Tons of options to this speed modifier thing. It's a brilliant idea at it's core, but it's hitting the same invisible wall it feels like we are hitting every time we stub our toe.

Edited by Victor Morson, 02 July 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[James Warren]

I agree.

The current maps don't appear to have been designed with this feature in mind (except perhaps Canyon) and as a result there is not nearly enough visual distinction between areas which can be traversed and those that cannot (even in Canyon).

[Unbound Inferno]

I posted it elsewhere, but;

Unbound Inferno, on 02 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Hm... there is a fix for this, wonder if I should clue PGI in?

Eh, why not. Don't think they read this anyway.

If the "pill" that each mech has also has its own "platform" to stand on in relation to the surface of the ground. Make it so that "platform" can't move in a vertical path alongside an incline that exceeds, lets say... 50-55, maybe 60 degrees tops. Assuming that incline exists in this situation. By doing so that "platform" hits a snag and becomes a no-move situation, removing the ability to move vertically up the hill as seen in that video.

Basically the platform is the mechanical means to say the legs can keep a mech balanced. The system tells it can't keep balance on that hill and stops you from moving in that direction. You can then only move downward from there, to avoid making it into a stuck situation.

All assuming that's part of what can be coded, of course. I mean, I assume so. You got that incline thing in, right?

Anyhow... in the meantime we've got hill climbers needing to realize how to see the terrain slopes to make it up the hill.

If they took that lower "platform" the mech stands on, and adjusted speed acording to the angle it suffers from the ground you walk on, it could work. Then its down to a numbers game with the Mech weight, Engine size and relative speed they are moving for how much that 'momentum' is working.

But I don't think they got such a platform and instead are just working with flat "pills" and using relative angle of direction instead of a larger "platform" to represent the mech's feet.

[The Cheese]

Victor Morson, on 02 July 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Going through and editing all the maps is a massive undertaking to fix a system that's basically broken and could be tweaked with numbers.

This is the worst possible approach to take.

Yes, it's a big job, but it's also a reliable solution. The numbers are obviously going to be tweaked to make the current system work better, but there will always be features that will trip it up. Those features will need individual attention. Also, the level builders already do what I suggested. Nearly every map has non-collidable objects (It's just a checkbox in CE3) and they frequently make changes to the collision maps to address stuck points.

The idea isn't to make everything work immediately. The idea is to simplify the system to reduce the amount of screwing around needed to make things work. Also, your suggestion of making the min climbing speed >0 doesn't address the clunkyness of getting stuck on small objects, which is what mine was aimed at.

Edited by The Cheese, 03 July 2013 - 01:16 AM.