84 replies to this topic

[Bagheera]

If there are inclines greater than the 0kph angle that are still climbable by cheating the angles (left/right quickly) - then that should be fixed in some fashion.

Are the low obstacles really as much of a problem as people are saying here - or are folks running into the same broken spots on maps? I ask because in the (admittedly few) matches I've played since the patch, by and large the system seemed to be working. I was surprised at the places where I was not slowed down, actually, I do recall a couple of sticky spots (mostly boulder clusters or similar objects) but nothing that led me to think anything but that particular map spot might be borked.

JJ stick is annoying, but it's not happening everywhere either.

So, another arguably questionable implementation of what is an otherwise excellent addition to the game.

Let's tune this *!^@&

Edited by Bagheera, 03 July 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

Matta, on 03 July 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Can't find any usefull video atm. But vectoring (except forward one) is not common in BT universe, is it ?

Well it is canon. Novels have it, depending on the actual mechs: Spiders and P-Hawks of course have it, Victors and Higlanders less so I think. Not just weight dependent though, I think the Marrauder II is pretty nimble once in the air ( well..nimble coapred to other JJ assaults at least). And in TT you can jump any path you want as long as you got enough jump movement points for it.

Oh and on topic: hadn´t a chance to play since patch, so can´t real say much yet.

Edited by Theodor Kling, 03 July 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Jestun]

Mechs shouldn't be able to climb up anything and everything.

Whether the current max is the right amount is a different story (one I can't answer as I've not really tested it).

[Theodor Kling]

Jestun, on 03 July 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Mechs shouldn't be able to climb up anything and everything.

Some mechs should..as long as whatever they climb is durable enough to keep standing when they do so. Humanoid mechs with hands..no reason not to play King Kong on a scyscraper ( ok.. apart from : if you slip and fall it will break your mech in worse ways then dual AC20s to the back..but then again..fall damage in MWO is so low...)

[Prezimonto]

The thing I've been hating is that JJ don't help you go forward at all unless you've got momentum already. So if you hit the brick wall angle before hitting your JJ, you still can't get up the hill without risking falling back down.

I guess then my complaint is over the wonky JJ mechanic. It's stupid that they don't push you forward as well as up... they should.. those vents are all down AND backwards...look at the flame. It would also partially fix poptarting as you wouldn't be able to repeated jump without also giving your self space to move forward every jump (or risk falling in the open).

[xDeityx]

Bagheera, on 03 July 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Are the low obstacles really as much of a problem as people are saying here - or are folks running into the same broken spots on maps?

Well you have to put it in the perspective of actual combat.

Are these little bumps that stop your 'mech a huge problem while you're traveling from your spawn to the fight? Nah it's just an annoyance, we can all deal with that.

Are they a problem when you're getting fired on? They are a huge problem. They can mean the difference between life and death in some situations.

[xDeityx]

Prezimonto, on 03 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

It would also partially fix poptarting as you wouldn't be able to repeated jump without also giving your self space to move forward every jump (or risk falling in the open).

This wouldn't work because people would just turn sideways. The good poptarters already do this so that they are harder to hit.

You turn your feet sideways and twist your torso, then from a standstill tap W to give yourself some momentum right before you go airborne. It's much harder to put fire on a target moving laterally because you have to lead them (which also means your convergence is zeroed at max range because your reticle isn't on their 'mech).

Compare this to someone going straight up and down where the person firing on them doesn't have to lead them and can put their reticle directly on target and fire with full convergence.

[Throat Punch]

If i remember correctly a hex in TT is 30m and going from level 0 terrain to level 1 terrain was representative of walking up a constant 30m slope, and was only a +1 to your movement (+2 if moving up 2 levels). Can someone with more math ability than me translate that (if possible) to our current movement rate in game? I'm just wondering because unless something was a sheer cliff (i.e. going from level 0 to level 2+) all terrain was completely passable in TT and I cannot think of a logical reason why in game minor obstacles would be stopping mechs like they currently are. I'm just curious.

[Jestun]

Morsdraco, on 03 July 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

If i remember correctly a hex in TT is 30m and going from level 0 terrain to level 1 terrain was representative of walking up a constant 30m slope, and was only a +1 to your movement (+2 if moving up 2 levels). Can someone with more math ability than me translate that (if possible) to our current movement rate in game? I'm just wondering because unless something was a sheer cliff (i.e. going from level 0 to level 2+) all terrain was completely passable in TT and I cannot think of a logical reason why in game minor obstacles would be stopping mechs like they currently are. I'm just curious.

This is not TT.

And those "minor obstacles" are for the most part mountains and cliffs.

[MustrumRidcully]

Theodor Kling, on 03 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Well it is canon. Novels have it, depending on the actual mechs: Spiders and P-Hawks of course have it, Victors and Higlanders less so I think. Not just weight dependent though, I think the Marrauder II is pretty nimble once in the air ( well..nimble coapred to other JJ assaults at least). And in TT you can jump any path you want as long as you got enough jump movement points for it.

Oh and on topic: hadn´t a chance to play since patch, so can´t real say much yet.

THe movement rules have it. You don'T need to jump a straight line, you can fly in circles. Turning doesn'T even cost movement points when jumping.

Jumping in the table top is pretty awesome, I think. It's also hot (because the system has heat penalties if you just go 5 points over your heat dissipation ability), and causes a lot inaccuracy, but if you want to move fast, often 6 squares of jumping can be worth more than 12 squares of running movement.

---

I think the reason the mechs stop dead in their tracks and all that is that the map designers wanted stuff to be not traversable, to control the flow of combat. I am not sure the mech balance was supposed to be better due to the change.

It seems to have a lot of undesirable side effects, and... "quirks".( To not call a bug a feature directly.)

[Coolant]

anything like MW4:Mercs is ok in my book...

[Dakkath]

Moving to patch feedback.

[Theodor Kling]

So after a few matches: It is somewhat anoying in a few places in frozen city where the snowdrifts meet buildings in a bad angle.
But I find it more problematic in caustic, where the pipes are real dangerous now as an unexpected obstacle. But then again..some o them are nearly hip heigth for my comando.

[jakucha]

I support fixing the little bugs, but what I don't want is for them to make the game easy mode in terms of map movement again.

Edited by jakucha, 04 July 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[AlexEss]

I disagree with the OP´s original post as there seems to be a problem in separating feature from issue.

The feature is working very well, the slowdown and the impasses give ground to a very tactical gample where you can actually create a bottleneck or deny ground.

The Issue is that it is not really dialled in. Now i personally do nothing they need to tame it in any way as far as the speed drop and the max limit, but i drive light and mediums so i am very biased. It woudl most likley have to have another pass to hit the sweet spot for all classes. Now the big issue is that even terrain that "should" be excluded from this system is still there, it is in essence the old "falling damage from running" issue but in reverse. This of course will have to be tweaked but once that is done i really have no problem with the system.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

DV McKenna, on 03 July 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Yea, these machines walk like humans, lift leg, bend knee, place leg on next firm footing.
a 45D angle...shouldn't stop them cold, however i suspect it was done this way as any higher an elevated angle, would mean reworking all the maps.

yeah which should have translated into "ok, this might be good, but it would require map reworking. so lets rework the maps and release it later." not "ok, 60 degrees, not enough 60 degree slopes to make it worthwhile...lets go with 45 degrees and see"

[LastPaladin]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 July 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

I think the reason the mechs stop dead in their tracks and all that is that the map designers wanted stuff to be not traversable, to control the flow of combat.

Yes, I gathered as much reading the article about map design, because they talk about "herding" us into certain areas. Well, if that is their goal, then just make this a friggin Wolfenstein clone where we walk down hallways until we get to the big rooms they want us to fight in. At least that way, we will clearly know where we aren't supposed to try and go, without have to play guessing games.

[Asmosis]

Bagheera, on 03 July 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

If there are inclines greater than the 0kph angle that are still climbable by cheating the angles (left/right quickly) - then that should be fixed in some fashion.

Are the low obstacles really as much of a problem as people are saying here - or are folks running into the same broken spots on maps? I ask because in the (admittedly few) matches I've played since the patch, by and large the system seemed to be working. I was surprised at the places where I was not slowed down, actually, I do recall a couple of sticky spots (mostly boulder clusters or similar objects) but nothing that led me to think anything but that particular map spot might be borked.

JJ stick is annoying, but it's not happening everywhere either.

So, another arguably questionable implementation of what is an otherwise excellent addition to the game.

Let's tune this *!^@&

Its not really possible to fix that, as turning and going on a different angle, well, changes the angle. Same reason roads in RL that go up the side of a mountain zigzag most of the way to reduce the angle of the climb.

Theres not really anything in terms of momentum, i'd expect 2-3 seconds worth of momentum at least but its only a fraction of that. Given how legs work, mechs should be able to get up about a 60-70 degree slope at 10-20% movement velocity.

I also think engine rating should factor in as much as "size" class. An atlas using a 400 rating for example should be able to get up slopes much better than one using a 250 rating engine.

I mean, there a paths *designed* to be walked up on some maps that no longer work. River city on the west end of the upper bridge for example, next to the dam. Theres a smoothed out portion for mechs to walk up, or was.

Edited by Asmosis, 04 July 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[Tstyles]

Are we not all missing something here?

Why don't we go faster downhill?

Why isn't anyone asking this question???

[FREDtheDEAD]

Accurate physics, anyone? Not hard to calculate mass, speed, momentum, slope, power, gravity and roll together a physics simulation of how fast a mech should be moving on a given slope - you could even allow for lower traction on snow and ice and loose rock. Wonder why these super simple and unrealistic rules? What happened to CryEngine's built-in physics? Are we all running Pentium 4s? Are the servers maxed out?