51 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

I think its more appropriate now, because you can poptart if you want to, that wasn't the problem. The problem before was that you had next to no time to retaliate against a poptarter, as you would a mech that had hillhumped or side stepped from cover. What this means is you have a certain amount of time to smack that poptarter before he even gets a chance to shoot at you. That's what I call "fair play".

[LastPaladin]

Silverlance, on 03 July 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Honestly. Can you people actually show some backbone and skill and for once in your sad, pathetic existences not go with a current meta because everyone else is doing it?

You really don't seem to have a firm grasp on how these things happen in a multiplayer game, or any game for that matter. People are not choosing strategies based on popularity, but effectiveness, and this will always be true, for any game. Only a minority of serious players will choose a less than optimal strategy, when they know it is less than optimal. That's just common sense, because everyone is trying to win.

Maybe read a little bit about game theory, starting with Von Neumann's minimax theorem, which has been known since 1928. No matter how PGI tweaks things, there will always be one strategy that is going to provide the most benefits, on average, with the least downside, and that is what players will naturally gravitate towards. This effect should be greatly minimized when we have real drop preparation, because by knowing what map and game mode we are dropping into, people will choose a more specialized strategy tailored to each situation. Right now, it's a crapshoot, so the best choice is to go with the build that has the most aggregate advantage in any possible situation that will arise.

Since mobility without jumpjets is extremely limited on some maps, that means dropping with a jj mech everytime is a no brainer when the map you will face is unknown. Since PPCs and Gauss are still the most flexible weapons, again it is a no brainer to equip those whenever you can. The return of poptarting, considering those variables, is simply unavoidable. Players, in aggregate, will follow these predictable patterns, and the only way to dissuade them is not to bash them on the forums, but to change the underlying variables which cause this strategy to emerge as the best choice.

Of course, changing the variables will only serve to make another strategy become the best choice, and then people who don't understand how these things work to whine about the new "flavor of the month". Like I said before, when we get a real drop prep screen and can tailor strategies to more specific situations, that will make the gameplay much more varied, no matter what the most effective general builds are.

[Skadi]

Dear god, ******* poptarts arnt the apocalyptic issue right now, not EVERYONE is doing it, ontop of that its so prevalent because of the weapon balance, there wouldn't be so much ppc sniping or poptarting if brawling was a viable tactic, they need to stop focusing on nerfing the **** out of jumpjet mechs and just making CQC a more viable tactice.

[Tipsy McTartan]

I was smashing a guy trying to pop-tart his Cataphract behind a ridge in Tourmaline earlier, with the reticle shake they have to jump high to give themselves time to aim when they let off the jets at the peak of the jump. This gives you much more time to strike before they do. As long as your not standing out in the open when doing this it's all too easy to counter, the real difficulty comes when there is group of them pop-tarting together and pretty much all of your team scatters instead of striking first.

[XphR]

Hillslam, on 03 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Oh the ironing

<--Lowell

Edited by XphR, 04 July 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

Me and the other 99%r's don't seem to suffer from your "problem."

Maybe you should find a more challenging game to play.

[Adeptus Odren]

Silverlance, on 03 July 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

So we see an increase in heat and punishment for high heat. We've seen movement tweaks which I think are great. BUT. And there's always a BUT in this game, which, is really sad. We've seen the return of poptarts. Honestly. Can you people actually show some backbone and skill and for once in your sad, pathetic existences not go with a current meta because everyone else is doing it? Because that's the actual issue right there. One person does it: ERPPCx3+/-Gauss on every single mech possible. I've even started seeing dual PPC Jenners. What a load of crap. Blaming PGI fixes nothing. It isn't their fault. They're actually trying hard to bring a good game to the table. The blame falls on you, the player base. For ruining what should be a great game to play with your severe lack of skills and your fear of death in a video game. Argue all you want in the defense of poptarts and PPC boats. No amount of arguing will ever change that fact that by using those builds, you are in fact a weak, skill-less noob who is too afraid to actually play the game fairly. Troll away noobs. Troll away.

Dear PGI. Level the playing field already. Implement weapon limitations and bring back the severe screen shake for jump jets. You had it spot on. You don't get "motion sickness" from a game. And if you do, you shouldn't be playing it in the first place. And for those players who still want to boat. Triple or quadruple their heat penalty and damage. That will stop all of this nonsense once and for all.

I dunno. I brawl with ERPPCs.

[Stonefalcon]

I agree with OP 100% on this especially the motion sickness bit. If you are on a boat and you get sick you don't have a whinge to God and ask him to nerf the water, you use common sense and either don't do it or use something to help.

MWO is no different, cockpit shake was spot on with the last patch, all the whiney ******* moaning they couldn't poptart anymore and don't want to adapt to a changing game meta.

[Bhael Fire]

Silverlance, on 03 July 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

So we see an increase in heat and punishment for high heat. We've seen movement tweaks which I think are great. BUT. And there's always a BUT in this game, which, is really sad. We've seen the return of poptarts. Honestly. Can you people actually show some backbone and skill and for once in your sad, pathetic existences not go with a current meta because everyone else is doing it? Because that's the actual issue right there. One person does it: ERPPCx3+/-Gauss on every single mech possible. I've even started seeing dual PPC Jenners. What a load of crap. Blaming PGI fixes nothing. It isn't their fault. They're actually trying hard to bring a good game to the table. The blame falls on you, the player base. For ruining what should be a great game to play with your severe lack of skills and your fear of death in a video game. Argue all you want in the defense of poptarts and PPC boats. No amount of arguing will ever change that fact that by using those builds, you are in fact a weak, skill-less noob who is too afraid to actually play the game fairly. Troll away noobs. Troll away.

Dear PGI. Level the playing field already. Implement weapon limitations and bring back the severe screen shake for jump jets. You had it spot on. You don't get "motion sickness" from a game. And if you do, you shouldn't be playing it in the first place. And for those players who still want to boat. Triple or quadruple their heat penalty and damage. That will stop all of this nonsense once and for all.

I cored a "pop tart" with a small laser tonight. Your argument is invalid.

Seriously, though...I ruin other player's days on a regular basis and I do it with cheese and without.

But mostly with cheese because it's fun to get naked.

What were you saying?

[LastPaladin]

Stonefalcon, on 03 July 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

MWO is no different, cockpit shake was spot on with the last patch, all the whiney ******* moaning they couldn't poptart anymore and don't want to adapt to a changing game meta.

When you say stuff like this, it just makes me ignore your opinion, since you completely ignore the opinions of all the light and medium pilots who were affected MUCH more by the original jj tweak than poptarters.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The problem with poptarts is the same problem with all weapon balancing. Perfect convergence ruins the game because it gives larger mechs capable of stacking multiples of the same weapon easily a distinct advantage over mechs that use a more balanced and various weapons layout.

The reason balance has yet to be fixed is because convergence has yet to be anything but perfect in regards to aiming.

[CHH Badkarma]

Dont like pop tarts? Learn how to deal with them! Simple!

Don't blame a play style, or cry to nerf this and that. Us tactics for crying out loud. Many, many of us have no problem at all dealing with pop tarts. Deal with it

[Scott Decoy Stone]

does no one else view poptarts as ***** shooting? you generally know which direction the enemy is coming from. if i see a highlander or cataphract pop into the air i think to myself "PULL!!!" and blast him with whatever direct fire weapons i got. it's not like he can change his flight path once airborne or anything.

s-k-e-e-t is censored? wow. awesome.

[CHH Badkarma]

Scott Decoy Stone, on 04 July 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

does no one else view poptarts as ***** shooting? you generally know which direction the enemy is coming from. if i see a highlander or cataphract pop into the air i think to myself "PULL!!!" and blast him with whatever direct fire weapons i got. it's not like he can change his flight path once airborne or anything.

s-k-e-e-t is censored? wow. awesome.

I tend to think the same thing. When I see something jump, out of reflex I shoot it

[Chemie]

OP: Please post "your rules" of how "we are supposed to play" because up to now I have been using the mechlab rules and seeking to maximize my damage potential. Apparently this is wrong. PGI has it right and you have a special set of "good virtuous player's" rules which we all need to learn so please post them. Otherwise, we do not know how we are "supposed" to play.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Jump-sniping was always a tactic with previous incarnations of Mechwarrior and it will be a part of this version and fair enough. Some people brave enough to try this should be allowed to. The aim/cockpit shake should be enough to make it hard without making light mechs impossible to pilot - a lot of time for lights is spent in the air. It's a balance between letting light mechs hit targets when jumping and letting Highlanders become overpowered jump-snipers. I think the balance is nearly there. It's now gone a step back towards the Cataphract/Highlander pop-tart meme but it's not crippling the game like it was. I'd like the shake to increase a very small amount.

Even better, increase shake depending on strength of jets (eg tonnage of Mech) - eg light mechs don't have much but Highlander get a lot.

[Niyata Raastad]

Pop tarting at this point requires more than a little skill. I actually kind of feel pretty clean doing it now that it's been nerfed with the shake and it requires some finesse. What in this game requires more skill than moving, jumping, aiming through shake (or timing it for after you start to fall) and still hitting your target? Dunno, seems lame to attack it like this.

This game seems fundamentally about hitting them without them hitting you. Or hitting them with a larger force on your team against a smaller force on theirs. As such, it seems to spark this kind of vitriol against 'cowardly' tactics. Look, I do have the most fun when a real brawl gets going, but that really IS NOT the fault of the player base. In fact, I feel exactly the opposite of you. It's the game that needs to change to encourage the most fun kind of game play.

If you want to go after PPCs and LRMS (because I feel like LRMs is strangely missing from your argument... My god if you want to talk about lack of skills... you should be talking about L... R... Ms....) then I'm with you at least a little. That is NOT the same as pop tarting though so be careful where you throw around that anger. Right now, I've been seeing multi PPC stalkers really drive the meta out there. I believe the plan is to try to minimize boating of ppcs by adding a penalty. Seems a reasonable approach?

[Modo44]

To actually stop poptarting, weapon convergence should remain broken for a few seconds after jump jets have been deactivated, not only while going up. This became obvious immediately after the cockpit shake was introduced. Still waiting for the implementation, PGI.

[Vulix]

I like the strawberry flavored poptarts. Any other flavor is inferior.

Poptarts. Seriously.

Modo44, on 05 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

To actually stop poptarting, weapon convergence should remain broken for a few seconds after jump jets have been deactivated, not only while going up. This became obvious immediately after the cockpit shake was introduced. Still waiting for the implementation, PGI.

Artificial randomness is never a good game mechanic. Why would the reticle be shaking after you turned thrusters off anyway?

Edited by Vulix, 05 July 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Modo44]

Vulix, on 05 July 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Artificial randomness is never a good game mechanic.

Yeah, missiles suck because of it.

Vulix, on 05 July 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Why would the reticle be shaking after you turned thrusters off anyway?

Because once you assume that jjs make stuff shake too much to aim, you can simply take it further: It takes time to fully stabilize 30+ tons of wildly shaking metal.