38 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

AC20 is fine, as is. And could actually use its ammo/ton upped to 10-per, once 12v12 comes in.

[mike29tw]

Kunae, on 03 July 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

AC20 is fine, as is. And could actually use its ammo/ton upped to 10-per, once 12v12 comes in.

AC20 is not fine until i'm seeing as many AC20 baots as AC10/AC5/AC2 boats.

[FupDup]

mike29tw, on 03 July 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

AC20 is not fine until i'm seeing as many AC20 baots as AC10/AC5/AC2 boats.

That might just be an indication of the AC/10 + 5 + 2 being underwhelming rather than the AC/20 being too good.

Edited by FupDup, 03 July 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[mike29tw]

FupDup, on 03 July 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

That might just be an indication of the AC/10 + 5 + 2 being underwhelming rather than the AC/20 being too good.

Except people are complaining that mechs are dying too fast(mostly to AC20/PPC boats I might add).

If you buff AC2/5/10 to where they can kill as fast as AC20, or buff SRMs to where the can kill as fast as PPC boats, we would have to triple armor again because every fight ends in like 3 seconds.

Or we could nerf AC20.

[YueFei]

Hardpoint restrictions will not solve the problem for good, like Homeless Bill said, at some point Clan mechs will arrive and we'd be back at square one. A core game mechanic change needs to occur to solve the problem once and for all.

[Khobai]

Quote

The heat penalty they implemented last patch is the perfect solution to the boating problem.

Except boating isnt the problem. It never was. Pinpoint alphastrikes for 30-40 damage are the problem. Getting rid of boating doesnt fix anything because boats arnt the cause of imbalance. PGI is well aware of the problem with pinpoint aiming but they keep trying to take shortcuts to fix it because they're too lazy to address it properly, and in the process theyre messing up game balance even more.

We do not needed this heat penalty nonsense. This is the only real fix that should even be considered:

1) when you fire one weapon, it should fire exactly where your reticle is pointed.
2) when you fire two or more weapons, the weapon aim should deviate randomly from the reticle, with the amount of deviation being proportional to the number of weapons fired.

So for example: if you fire one or two PPCs, they all hit the same location. If you fire three or four PPCs, they might all hit, but not the same location. If you fire five or more PPCs, half might hit in different locations, and half might miss completely.

What this does is make alpha strikes less accurate than firing single shots... but it keeps the skill aspect of aiming intact because its fully within player control how accurate they want their shots to be.

Quote

Except people are complaining that mechs are dying too fast

Because they are.

Battletech has random hit locations and a mech's center torso is only supposed to get hit 20% of the time. But in MWO you can hit someone in the center torso potentially 100% of the time with perfect aim. That is FIVE times more damage than tabletop. Even with double armor accounted for, its still 2.5 times more damage than tabletop. So mechs are dropping 2-3 times faster than their tabletop counterparts. Damage is at least double what it should be right now due to pinpoint aiming.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Donnie Silveray]

Gauss and AC20s are fine when alone. Dropping the fire rate just makes the PPC more viable IMO. Consider the mechs that don't mount dual guass or AC20. Putting the AC20 cycle to 5 seconds will smash Atlai, Yen Lo Wang, and an assortment of other mechs just so you can feel better about those Jagers dual wielding them.

I can live with AC20 having reduced damage at range, though frankly I'd at least want it to do some damage at maximum. 5 damage at over 500m or something, canceling out just makes that big hulking projectile seem to go to waste. Or at least give it significant bullet drop once it hits 500m, I don't want 0 damage at 500. Remember that AC20s only get 7 rounds a ton. Even if they do the same damage as the AC10 at those ranges currently, the player is sacrificing a LOT to make that shot. For ever 500 range shot, a player has effectively used up 2 AC10 bullets worth of tonnage for the same damage. Other than that, the AC20 is very balanced.

Gauss Rifles weight more than AC20s and explode when destroyed. That alone kind of dissuades me from putting that thing anywhere in my torsos, plus the relatively slow projectile speed compared to the PPC and the need for ammo means I'll not likely shoot that thing at moving targets at range. Wheres I can shoot with impunity with the PPC like an energy version of suppressive fire. Upping the cycle time might make dual Gauss builds a tad less scary due to their range and damage, but I don't see how it'll make a long term difference aside from making it an inferior AC20 in a brawl.

PPCs are in dire need of balancing in almost every field to be less dominating. They need a speed nerf as they make dodging nearly impossible, taking the role of the standard lasers which are hitscan. They need a heat nerf as they seem to rarely overheat when under duress even in heat intensive maps. This is the absolute 'simplest' solution for the short term, as in something I can probably just flip a switch and call it a day on. For a more long term solution, PGI is partly on it by including overheat penalties in CT damage right now. The key is to make large scale active boating less efficient and more risky. The heat scale system could solve it but not with the numbers they provided.

As the PPCs are kind of the face of the pinpoint alpha problem, forcing a player to stagger fire will likely end up with shots not ending up on target, thus solving your pin point problem lest they risk overheating penalties.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 03 July 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[mike29tw]

Khobai, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Except boating isnt the problem. It never was. Pinpoint alphastrikes for 30-40 damage are the problem. Getting rid of boating doesnt fix anything because boats arnt the cause of imbalance. PGI is well aware of the problem with pinpoint aiming but they keep trying to take shortcuts to fix it because they're too lazy to address it properly, and in the process theyre messing up game balance even more.

This is the only real fix:

1) when you fire one weapon, it fires exactly where your reticle is pointed.
2) when you fire two or more weapons, the weapon aim should deviate randomly from the reticle, with the amount of deviation being proportional to the number of weapons fired.

So for example: if you fire one or two PPCs, they all hit the same location. If you fire three or four PPCs, they might all hit, but not the same location. If you fire five or more PPCs, half might hit in different locations, and half will might miss completely.

What this does is make alpha strikes less accurate than firing single shots... but it keeps the skill aspect of aiming intact because its fully within player control how accurate they want their shots to be.

Congratulations. You just nerfed all the laser boats that are NOT OP to begin with.

[Donnie Silveray]

I'd like to point out that what isn't considered an OP build can essentially do just what you say.

Altas AS7-D
AC20
4ML
SRM6

I can alpha Strike for 40-50(assuming SRM buff) damage at 270m and I can keep those lasers on target for their duration against a medium-larger mech. Congrats I did the equivalent of 4-5 PPCs or 2 and a half AC20s without boating any of them and use less weight than the boating solutions, even if the damage is slightly spread out. If what you suggest would essentially 'break' this, then you've got the wrong gameplay mechanic as you've effectively nerfed a legit, balanced build. This is my say vs the whole 'random targetting' gimmick.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 03 July 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Congratulations. You just nerfed all the laser boats that are NOT OP to begin with.

Not really. Lasers wont be affected much because theyre short range weapons (>200m). The spread wont be nearly as severe as on long range weapons like PPCs.

[HansBlix WMD]

Donnie Silveray, on 03 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that what isn't considered an OP build can essentially do just what you say.

Altas AS7-D
AC20
4ML
SRM6

I can alpha Strike for 40-50(assuming SRM buff) damage at 270m and I can keep those lasers on target for their duration against a medium-larger mech. Congrats I did the equivalent of 4-5 PPCs or 2 and a half AC20s without boating any of them and use less weight than the boating solutions, even if the damage is slightly spread out. If what you suggest would essentially 'break' this, then you've got the wrong gameplay mechanic as you've effectively nerfed a legit, balanced build.

But this alpha strike takes skill to pull off (aim slow moving SRMs, keep lasers on target) and isn't guaranteed to all hit one component. In fact it's nearly guaranteed to hit three or four depending on the SRM range.

I think most people would agree this kind of alpha is totally fine, balanced and in the spirit of the game.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'd like to point out that what isn't considered an OP build can essentially do just what you say.

Not really.

The SRM6 cant be pinpoint aimed. And holding the 4 ML on a single location for their entire duration is hard to do. So the damage from that alpha strike is going to spread out across different locations most of the time. Additionally that alpha strike is limited to 270m.

That is completely different from two PPC/Gauss doing 35-40 damage to a single location from 540m away.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[mike29tw]

Khobai, on 03 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Not really. Lasers wont be affected much because theyre short range weapons (>200m). The spread wont be nearly as severe as on long range weapons like PPCs.

Seriously? Lasers are considered the more skilled weapon in MWO because you need to hold the entire duration on an enemy mech, or if you're good enough, on a single body part. Your suggestion completely removes that part of the skill from the equation. Also lasers are almost always required 2+ of the same to deal any significant damage, and your suggestion basically turned lasers into LBX.

[Khobai]

Quote

Your suggestion completely removes that part of the skill from the equation.

Again it doesnt remove skill from the equation. You dont have to fire all of your lasers at once. You can fire them in seperate weapon groups to maximize their accuracy. The brilliance of my solution is that it gives players complete control over the accuracy of their weapons.

Im sorry if your easy mode alpha striking playstyle is disrupted by it. But its players like you that are the problem to begin with.

[Mystere]

Donnie Silveray, on 03 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

PPCs are in dire need of balancing in almost every field to be less dominating. They need a speed nerf as they make dodging nearly impossible, taking the role of the standard lasers which are hitscan. They need a heat nerf as they seem to rarely overheat when under duress even in heat intensive maps.

With regard to nerfing the speed of a PPC, I would say no simply because the thought of an energy-based weapon taking longer to hit than a projectile-based weapon is somewhat silly.

Now as for increasing the heat, that I can agree with.

[mike29tw]

Khobai, on 03 July 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Again it doesnt remove skill from the equation. You dont have to fire all of your lasers at once. You can fire them in seperate weapon groups to maximize their accuracy. The brilliance of my solution is that it gives players complete control over the accuracy of their weapons.

Im sorry if your easy mode alpha striking playstyle is disrupted by it. But its players like you that are the problem to begin with.

Nice job assuming my playstyle. Try using your head without assuming everyone opposing your suggestion a pro alpha strike player next time.

The problem is gauss still does 15 damage per shot, pin-point, while a single laser does 9 damage at most, and spread its damage during the whole burn time. In the end, gauss/PPC/AC20 boats that chain fire is still far far more superior than lasers and SRMs, so no, your suggestion solves nothing. gauss/PPC/AC20 boats will still be the most viable options.

[General Taskeen]

The problem is kind of full circle at this point with taking straight up damage values from TT, without going outside the box. After all, they did want games to "last" longer with double armor, etc.

Lasers - Burn Time (already good, probably the only things that make sense in combination with their listed TT damage values)

Pulse Lasers - Don't really make sense yet, need an overhaul. Best suggestions are to lower their damage, and increase cool down dramatically so they are really fast firing 'machine gun' lasers.

Autocannons - Full damage shells, might need overhaul. Best suggestions are to change to them to burst style mechanics, where they fire a certain number of shells where the accumulated damage is the "equivalent" of that class of autocannon. Another suggestion was to add re-coil along with the burst.

PPC - Also front loaded damage, mixed feelings. Would be better as a return to the MW4 fast 'beam' PPC, with other features that made it unique like transferring heat and messing with an enemies hud display.

Gauss - Make sense with front loaded damage. All that's needed is to adjust their cool down or damage as necessary if other changes are made.

Alpha Strike Pin Point - Could be changes to have some dynamics, where as firing singly would be as accurate as it is now, where as Alpha Strike is less accurate.

[MaddMaxx]

Khobai, on 03 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Not really. Lasers wont be affected much because theyre short range weapons (>200m). The spread wont be nearly as severe as on long range weapons like PPCs.

Really? Lasers are not short range weapons when you get to the LL and (er)LL. 650 and 700 + range and still potent. Where the 40 pt PPC gets nerfed, it will be replaced quickly with more 4-5 LL builds (that run about now already, and will do just slightly less Alpha damage (36-45pt) and for less heat.

Then what? Nerf the **** out of the (er) Lasers as well?

[WildeKarde]

Simple option is to increase to make the cooldown of multiple weapons the standard number x the number of weapons fired. 2 x AC20 is double cooldown. Means you can't risk a miss

As for pin point damage the weapons should vary slightly where they hit - they shouldn't converge exactly even from a single location firing - might only vary 6" when they hit but could be enough to hit differing areas.