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Support Wants Your Help ( And A Discussion About The Imapacts On Light-Hunting As A Tactic )


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#21 Monky

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers?

How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured? What makes everyone think that "High-Alpha Meta" will be the answer to everything months from now, in all game modes, with weight restrictions? Please think ahead a bit.


It's simple, send 2 Stalkers to 4 points.... the lights show up to contest? blast em. 3 stalkers per point in 12 v 12. They're not going to whittle you down before your 4x PPC combo caps their legs or XL engines.

Hell, you can even do 4 stalkers on 3 points... I'd like to see the slaughter after the enemy lights try to swarm that. Shooting womp rats....

Edited by Monky, 03 July 2013 - 10:48 AM.


#22 xDeityx

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostTezcatli, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:


You have it backwards. Those of you that don't want to stick to the topic of the thread can start your own threads. Instead of acting like petulant children when you're told to stay on topic.


I'm actually sticking to the topic, so direct your hostility elsewhere. I'm simply explaining why he isn't getting what he wants.

Also, the topic of this thread didn't mention light-hunting at all originally (it was edited in), and the original post does't even bring it up until the last few sentences. I don't think people are being petulant children in the slightest, that's pretty uncalled for.

#23 xDeityx

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers?

How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured? What makes everyone think that "High-Alpha Meta" will be the answer to everything months from now, in all game modes, with weight restrictions? Please think ahead a bit.


Stalkers aren't the only high alpha boats and even if they were new 'mechs will be introduced that will be able to fill this role, look a the Victor. Take your own advice about thinking ahead.

Actually, why should we bother thinking ahead? We have no idea what hare-brained changes will be made to the metagame by the time 12v12 games are being played. We can cross that bridge when we get there.

No idea why you're so focused on talking about an irrelevant role. Play the game as it is, not how you want it to be. If you want Light Hunting to be relevant then use your influence with the devs to make a game in which it is.

#24 YueFei

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:05 AM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers?

How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured? What makes everyone think that "High-Alpha Meta" will be the answer to everything months from now, in all game modes, with weight restrictions? Please think ahead a bit.


When did I mention anything about Stalkers? You said this was about heavies hunting lights, and how the new movement code is supposed to help light mechs escape heavies over rolling terrain. And I'm telling you that it's already a non-issue, since heavies don't really pursue lights, they just splat them when given the opportunity to do so. Must I remind you that a Stalker is an Assault mech and not a Heavy mech?

Make up your mind about what this topic is about, and don't contradict yourself, please.

#25 Jasen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:43 AM

Oh... NOW PGI wants our input. I say they should ask the silent majority to fix their damn bugs. Good luck with launch.

#26 Deathlike

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:01 PM

The thing about "light hunting" is that for heavier mechs, it's simply "shoot the light mech" when they are within your crosshairs and not much further than that.

Unless Mediums have the same speed options as the Cicada, there is no light hunting to be had by mediums.. since they simply don't have the speed to catch up... they MAY have the firepower, but even then most lights are fast enough to minimize contact when piloted well.

Of course, this is well expressed at how the Quickdraw and Dragon (both heavies) are faster than most mediums.

#27 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers?

How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured? What makes everyone think that "High-Alpha Meta" will be the answer to everything months from now, in all game modes, with weight restrictions? Please think ahead a bit.

The PPC stalker doesn't need to.

Its the flaw in the system: convergence and boating against a segmented armor system that means essentially a easy kill like a headshot if the most common place to be hit is hit. And its hit, alot.

All the typical 4xERPPC Stalker needs is 2-3 good alphastrike shots. Less shots likely needed and the light is toast. That is 40 points of pinpoint damage up close and personal each time, and all on ONE segment od the mech. If it doesn't kill it, the light lost something - and what are the odds? One of the 2 Legs, 2 Arms can be given usually - and still horrible to loose for obvious reasons, but if its a Side Torso with an XL engine its dead the same as the CT that can't take too many of those hits, all that speed was for nothing because the Stalker had just the right timing on his shot.Its why we call it PPC hell these days, too much damage all at once too fast on an armor system that can't take it - loose the 'wrong' section and your done. The CT is the largest portion, the one you don't want to loose and the one hit most of the time because its easier to hit.


In relation to this; the Stalker in attempting to position for the Light has a huge advantage in Armor and firepower. If the stalker can easily traverse that hill or incline that is around it to get the next shot before the light can duck for cover, well its all over. Letting the lights have that advantage is the point, so they can make a getaway or use the terrain to their advantage to tackle that heavier and slower mech.

Its not just speed, but reaction times too - but that's something else.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 03 July 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#28 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM

View PostxDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

No idea why you're so focused on talking about an irrelevant role. Play the game as it is, not how you want it to be. If you want Light Hunting to be relevant then use your influence with the devs to make a game in which it is.

The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 12:27 PM.


#29 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.

Yeah that sounds good on paper and in a post - but how will that happen in game?

Unless you do something really drastic to convergence, PPC in general or a mix of a few other things it'll remain the best loadout for the best output.

#30 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

to all the whinos - that's PGI doing nothing again...no wait, they are addressing the issue!

excellent to see this thread crop up so promptly :)

#31 xDeityx

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.


Ok, what is the future then?

Define it and we can talk about it. Until then we're just pontificating on unknowns. Maybe they'll fix the metagame, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll introduce role warfare as described in the dev blogs, maybe they won't. Maybe the netcode will improve so that lights can go faster than 151kph, maybe it won't.

It seems rather pointless to discuss the future metagame when we have no idea how it will pan out. We can guess how it will be based on the devs stated their intentions, but we saw how well that worked out for third-person view.

I'm reminded of this post.

#32 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 03 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

to all the whinos - that's PGI doing nothing again...no wait, they are addressing the issue!

excellent to see this thread crop up so promptly :)

I'll still whine until they actually do something about it.

Talk and posting is one thing - seeing the game change BECAUSE of that talk and posting will be another.

But yeah, step in the right direction at least. Just make that next one...

#33 Monky

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.


Well, if we're putting it that way, we're kind of being led into a dark room and being asked to comment on the furnishings and wallpaper.

My opinion is this and it is based on what i've seen throughout closed and open beta;

Heat is the fundamental problem, followed by lance/company tonnage, followed by mech max speed, followed by mech size/hitboxes.

If these problems are fixed from a ground up approach, I can see the game meta changing from high alpha to sustained low-mid alpha and mechs starting to have combat roles. Movement rework is a part of the mech max speed equation, but only a small part after engine size and turning ability.

That's really all that can be said at this point I guess.

Edited by Monky, 03 July 2013 - 12:44 PM.


#34 Jasen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:44 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.



So quit drinking the PGI kool-aid and spill it already. Acting like you have some grand insider knowledge.

Promising great things only works for so long... I think that expired a few months ago actually.

#35 PEEFsmash

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

The new tiers in the movement code will have a big effect when it comes to chases that take place between Mechs of different movement tiers among rolling hills, specifically because you'll see Top Speed changes for one Mech while the other Mech retains it's full Top Speed. That change, alone, will have a huge impact on the tactics of "Light Hunting" by larger, up-engined Mechs. They won't be able to maintain 80kph over rolling hills to chase that fleeing Light before it gets out of range...

Does anyone else see this as being a major change on the field? or does Light Hunting not play as strong of a role for this to matter much?... or am I totally off base on this?


I speak from the perspective of a primary light in a top-tier competitive unit.

Light hunting is not a thing. It is a theory thrown about sometimes. Maybe someone does it every once in awhile for kicks, but it has never been a successful strategy in top-tier play. Light hunting, honestly, is best done by Assault/Heavy snipers. They just vaporize you in 1 shot. No need to chase anything or even move. There is absolutely no reason to dedicate a big engine heavy/med to hunt lights because lights are typically not a serious factor, unless it is a tonnage limited drop where lights are obviously mandated.

Basically, there is no reason to waste tonnage to kill lights when lights are going to get hard countered by heavies and assaults anyway. Lights are extremely weak right now in competitive play, and it takes a very very special situation for lights to be serious factors ATM because top-tier snipers crush them. Lights find the army in the beginning, get behind a rock and stare at their seismic indicator. Then once the fight starts they either fight, try to cap, or try to defend cap, but cheating 1 heavy sniper back far enough to get to base in time nullifies any cap attempt. The real role of lights is to save tonnage so you can drop more heavy/assault snipers.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 July 2013 - 12:48 PM.


#36 HansBlix WMD

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:48 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:


The game, as it is, will be changing. Living for only today will leave you unprepared for tomorrow.
These 2 game-modes with only snipers and unlimited tons is not the future.


If you could let us know how that plays out we can tell you how we might like light hunting to go.

As for now, the only hunters are high alpha warriors. The rest must scurry and hide like frightened squirrels. I'd love to hunt lights in my hunchback but I'm too busy dodging PPC and gauss shots to try.

#37 Victor Morson

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Support is working on trying to resolve new problems that have cropped up with the Movement code. Specifically, the Pebbles of Steel.

The new movement code is meant to help balance gameplay in respect to emphasizing mobility as a strength on the battlefield, but the new code has caused some significant mobility problems. Light and Medium Mechs are being stopped-cold by small rocks and things, which is resulting in easy potshots upon them. All Mechs are affected by this Pebble of Steel effect, too, but it's particularly bad when your Jenner is cruising along at full tilt and you suddenly slow-down to "Target Speed" for no reason.

In an effort to improve gameplay, the Support Team is soliciting help to identify the map/grid locations of these evil little caltrop pebbles. Here's a link to the thread where information is being requested, and a quote of it:


The problem isn't pebbles. The problem is massively abrupt speed falloffs that happen on every slant. Fixing each and every one of these is flat out stupid because even getting one of your feet too close to an incline will dead stop you.

The movement system is utter trash, and if you fix the momentum falloff and stop trying to gimp 'mechs from accessing terrain, all the problems will go away. Normally I think this would be a great thing that you're reaching out, but the first time the support team reaches out, it's for something like this.

The entire movement system is broken at it's core. Please don't go around flattening out the maps because of it.

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

So, aside from reporting the Pebbles problem, I'd like to know if people think this new mevement Code has affected Gameplay balance from the perspective of Mobility vs Firepower. From the beginning of the game, all Mechs traveled like extremely torquey wheeled vehicles, effortlessly "rolling" up and down most hills. This was most evident in the chases that take place around small, rolling hills.

The new tiers in the movement code will have a big effect when it comes to chases that take place between Mechs of different movement tiers among rolling hills, specifically because you'll see Top Speed changes for one Mech while the other Mech retains it's full Top Speed. That change, alone, will have a huge impact on the tactics of "Light Hunting" by larger, up-engined Mechs. They won't be able to maintain 80kph over rolling hills to chase that fleeing Light before it gets out of range...


I want to say that I absolutely love the concept behind the movement system, in the speed reductions. I think making assaults crawl up terrain where lights can manage it at only a slight penalty would be a huge shot in the arm to medium and light 'mechs, as well as smaller heavies. I'd even like this speed boost applied to other terrain types as well, such as deep water for eventual swamp maps. The idea that on some terrain assaults have heavily penalized movement is a good thing.

What is positively not a good thing is removing the ability to access much of the map's terrain, in particular when the falloff is such that you can almost crest a hill and then simply grind to a halt near the top of it. It is also not a good thing when a high speed medium can't even clear snow drifts on Alpine.. not the hills, I'm talking snow drifts.

MechWarrior: Online previously had a completely fine "cut-off" point as to what height level you can reach; literally nobody was going to places they shouldn't be going. Someone got this system way off when they made it about dead-stopping 'mechs to 0, rather than drastically reducing their movement speed. One is incredibly, incredibly frustrating and the other is a buff to light 'mechs.

The other big problem, again, is speed falloff. Once you hit an inappropriate angle it loses speed fast. If you walk over a mount of dirt or push close to a slanted wall with a medium or light, your speed will suddenly plummet like a rock. There's no "momentum carrying you forwards" that was suggested. If there was, things like the "Pebbles of Steel" wouldn't actually be happening, because the 'mech would only lose a few KPH and keep going, rather than turning into a medium weight kick me sign.

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Does anyone else see this as being a major change on the field? or does Light Hunting not play as strong of a role for this to matter much?... or am I totally off base on this?


It is a major change, and again, if this movement system had the same level of terrain accessibility we had previously but performance was impacted on terrain, this would be an awesome help to medium and light 'mechs. The bigger the 'mech, the harder the penalty on "rough/steep terrain" and you have a fine system. But it should never reduce a 'mechs speed to 0, or a least do so very gradually. At least, not until it would have reached "impassable" levels prior to the patch. I'm not saying we should be able to climb stuff we could not previously, just that actual map accessibility should remain the same.

I know some people are in favor of blocking off much of the maps, but I will tell you the biggest problem with that hands down: It turns the game into a Corridor Shooter. There's no getting around it. If you try to jam most players into very specific locations and try to artificially limit their routes, the game immediately ceases to be MechWarrior and turns into every other FPS out there. 'mechs being really mobile is one of the best things MW:O has done so far, and this totally ruins it.

TL/DR: Make the speed drop off much slower, make the minimum speed something other than 0, penalize lights/mediums even less and heavies/assaults even more and you won't need to fix the "pebbles of steel" because the problem will resolve itself.

Also for all the good intentions of this path, "rocking back and forth map monkeying up hills" is the result and that is lame. Very, very lame.

PS: Most of my first hand experience has been in moderately quick 50 tonners, whom I figured would have an edge over assaults and be able to handle terrain easier. I'm getting ground to a halt on every little slope or angle that my 'mech hits, but even if it's only for a second, it's a death sentence.

PPS: Nothing is as frustrating as a stuck spot or invisible wall in a game, and this has pretty much turned the maps into a series of invisible walls. When the player can see a location they want to move to, and feels like if they took one or two steps they could be there, yet is stuck it's just really.. angering. Some of us veterans that have spent years monkeying up hills in MW4 are doing better than others but this has got to frustrate new players horrendously.

#38 xDeityx

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 03 July 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:


I speak


Maybe he'll listen to you. I've said this several times already but he apparently wants us to comment on how this change will impact 12v12 conquest gameplay in 3 months or something.

I'm not sure what his relationship with PGI is but if he is at all representative of PGI's level of awareness of their own game I am not surprised in the least by his fixation on "Light Hunting."

#39 Victor Morson

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

That change, alone, will have a huge impact on the tactics of "Light Hunting" by larger, up-engined Mechs. They won't be able to maintain 80kph over rolling hills to chase that fleeing Light before it gets out of range...


I forgot to address this.

First, having a light handle a hill much faster than assault is a good thing. Same with mediums and light heavies (like the Dragon) that need that kind of advantage. It could be really neat if a Centurion could be zipping up hills at 80 that a Stalker could only take at 20. But this is pretty much for brawls.

Actual "Light Hunting" has a name: Horrendous noobies. They are literally the guys that, if you do some searches, everyone jokes about - the assaults that chase Jenners. The irony being that these people hurt the team far, far, far worse than helping it and a good light pilot will simply just keep running around on their seismic, dragging these people off your line.

ANY good team only hunts lights with other lights, or with combinations of lights & mediums. They do not hunt lights with assaults. Sure they might shoot at them if they come into range, but if you are seriously chasing lights down in an assault, you are doing a terrible job.

Trying to nerf these people is pure and total madness. They're already among the very worst piloting ideas in the whole game and you will never, ever see it outside of the lowest brackets.

Again, I think it'd be awesome if a Centurion could vastly outmaneuver a Stalker on a hill by taking advantage of the inclines. That'd be awesome. Making it so 'mechs can't walk over the hill is not that.

PS: The reason people light hunt in assaults is they literally are operating on the tactical mindset of a zombie. They will chase the first moving thing they see, period.

If this nerf is anyway related to nerfing what amounts to some of the worst players in the game opposed to giving smaller 'mechs a big edge in a brawl, I really am kind of horrified by the implications of that.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 July 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#40 Victor Morson

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostYueFei, on 03 July 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

When did I mention anything about Stalkers? You said this was about heavies hunting lights, and how the new movement code is supposed to help light mechs escape heavies over rolling terrain.


I'm worried that from what I've seen, they think this is to help mediums and lights escape.

That's not my primary concern. My primary concern is having them have a huge tactical edge in a straight up fight - in a large brawl if a medium/light pilot can be smart about his terrain usage and gain a massive maneuverability edge over heavier targets they are joining in against, that'd be awesome.

Absolutely nothing to do with light hunting, of course, but rather increasing lighter 'mechs ability to brawl over heavier 'mechs.. on the right terrain. This adds depth instead of removing it, like what is going on right now.





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