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Weapon Power Requirements


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Poll: Should power-dependent weapons require corresponding draws from the engine? (15 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you agree with OP?

  1. Yes, I agree. (4 votes [26.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.67%

  2. Yes I agree with the concept, but not with the way it's presented. (3 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  3. Yes, but I think the idea itself needs changes. (5 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. No, I disagree. (2 votes [13.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.33%

  5. Abstain (1 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

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#1 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

IMPORTANT NOTE:

A mechanic such as this would need to be evaluated and modified as-required in the Public Test Server before it ever went Live. I'm not asking for this to be implemented as-is. It's a foundation to build off of.



Currently, due to the way the meta has worked out, PPCs and Gauss Rifles are the kings of the battlefield.

I present a suggestion to (hopefully) ease that problem:
The introduction of another limitation on all weapons, called "power draw". (Name is arbitrary, just make it easy to understand what it is.)

Before anyone starts saying that logic and MWO mix like osmium and hydrogen, stop and think about this for a second.

All weapons require power to operate in some amount, however small, or you'd be able to use your weapons while your mech was powered down. Among all weapons, the gauss rifle, lasers, and PPCs are all weapons which require much higher amounts of power, (relative to missiles and AutoCannon ballistics), in order to operate properly.

Potential Gameplay Mechanic:
The engine of a mech can only output so much power at once, and once it reaches that limit, no additional power can be drawn from the engine until something stops drawing power. (I haven't decided whether or not that level of power should be dependant upon engine rating, as I can see issues with both sides.)

PPC:
The PPC -- Particle Projector Cannon (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC) -- fires a stream of either protons or ions at a target in order to cause damage via the transfer of thermal and kinetic energies. Both protons and ions are electromagnetically charged particles, which must be isolated from electromagnetically neutral sources. It takes large amounts of power to isolate protons or create ions via non-chemical means, and the PPC is most certainly not a chemical weapon. When the PPC fires, it requires a HUGE power supply, and causes a massive spike in the power draw of your engine. Because it fires all at once, the spike dissipates very rapidly, but it is still there. Has incredibly high "power draw".

Gauss Rifle:
The gauss rifle (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_rifle) uses electromagnetic energy to fire a large slug made of nickel and iron at a high velocity. The energy is stored in capacitors untill the rifle is fired, at which point the energy in the capacitors is used to accelerate the metal slug to high speeds to cause damage. (Capacitors are basically batteries which can be quickly drained and recharged.) The energy has to come from somewhere, right? Make it so that when the gauss rifle is fired, it immediately starts drawing energy from the engine to recharge the capacitors, and this is its power draw statistic. Has extremely high "power draw".

ECM/BAP:
ECM is a constantly emitted jumble of electromagnetic signals known as "white noise", which serve to confuse radar systems of the opposition. (Technically, it also confuses allied systems as well, but PGI has been pretty clear on its stance in that regards, so I'll leave that alone.) Has very high "power draw". (This one isn't really a required one -- it just popped into my mind while I was making the rest of this post, so I thought I'd include it.)
BAP is a form of high-powered radar which increases sensor range, reduces the time to identify specific details of targeted mechs, allows the detection of powered-down enemy mechs at short range, and allows negation of ECM at short range. Has medium-high "power draw". (This one isn't really a required one -- it just popped into my mind while I was making the rest of this post, so I thought I'd include it.)

Lasers:
Lasers require continuous streams of power to work, though on a much lower level than that of a gauss rifle or PPC. Lasers draw power for the entire duration of their beam, but not their cooldown duration. The amount of power drawn is dependant upon the size of the laser (small/medium/large) and the type of the laser (standard/pulse/ER). Standard lasers draw their power over a slightly longer duration than their Pulse counterparts, but also draw a higher total amount. Pulse lasers draw their power over a shorter duration than their Standard counterparts, but also draw a lower total amount. ER lasers draw a much higher amount than standard lasers, and draw it over the duration of the beam.
  • Small Pulse Lasers - Have very low "power draw".
  • Small Lasers - Have low "power draw".
  • Medium Pulse Lasers - Have medium-low "power draw".
  • Medium Lasers - Have medium "power draw".
  • Large Pulse Lasers - Have medium-high "power draw".
  • Large Lasers - Have high "power draw".
  • ER Large Lasers - Have very high "power draw".
AutoCannons:



AutoCannons require only a small amount of power -- just enough for the firing mechanism of the gun to go off and make the propellant in the shell ignite. The requirement of power is per shot fired, so the AC/2 would be a low power draw, but done frequently, while the AC/20 would be a high power draw (for an AutoCannon), but done much less often. Have low "power draw".

Missiles/NARC beacon:
Missiles should require the second-least amount of power of any weapon system, as they require only enough power to tell the missiles to fire if they are SRMs or NARC, and only enough to fire, then be guided by a targeting computer if they are Streak SRMs or LRMs. Have very low "power draw".

Machine Guns/AMS/TAG:
All of these pieces of technology require so little power that their power draw is, for all practical purposes, nearly nonexistant. All of these systems have a negligeable "power draw".

To give a sense of scale, I'll make a comparison using a scale of 0-100. (These numbers are just examples, and could just as easily be adjusted to 0-10, or to 0-1000. I picked them to showcase the differences between the systems more easily.) I also included the method in which the power is drawn from the engine, that being when it is drawn from the engine, and for how long.
  • PPC - 80/100 -- (high spike drawn all at once when weapon is fired, drops off quickly)
  • Gauss Rifle - 70/100 -- (high draw spread across duration of cooldown, stops once cooldown is complete)
  • ER Large Laser - 55/100 -- (drawn constantly during the beam duration)
  • ECM - 50/100 (drawn constantly while ECM is active)
  • Large Laser - 45/100 -- (drawn constantly during the beam duration)
  • BAP - 40/100 -- (drawn constantly while BAP is active)
  • Large Pulse Laser - 35/100 -- (drawn evenly per pulse during the beam duration)
  • Medium Laser - 30/100 -- (drawn constantly during the beam duration)
  • Medium Pulse Laser - 25/100 -- (drawn evenly per pulse during the beam duration)
  • AutoCannons - 10/100 - 20/100 -- (drawn every time the gun is fired)
  • Small Laser - 15/100 -- (drawn constantly during the beam duration)
  • Small Pulse Laser - 10/100 -- (drawn evenly per pulse during the beam duration)
  • Missiles - 5/100 -- (only requires enough power to run the launcher and targeting computer)
  • Machine Guns/AMS/TAG - 1/100 -- (for practical purposes, they don't really draw much at all)

*DISCLAIMER*


These numbers are just examples for a sense of scale. I picked them based upon my personal opinion of how I think these systems should be organized at a quick glance. Please don't talk about 'adjusting' the values unless you support the idea, as it isn't going to end up meaning anything at all if this idea ends up not being used.



So, what do the rest of you think about this?


*EDIT*
And for Kerensky's sake people -- if you think it needs changes, please, suggest some! I can't read minds!

Edited by Spirit of the Wolf, 03 July 2013 - 01:51 PM.


#2 blinkin

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:43 PM

the problem is these fusion engines are effectively not limited in their power output, the limit is the heat produced by drawing power. gauss bypass the issue by steadily filling up capacitors in the gun over time (that's why the rifle itself explodes when destroyed). this will never make it past the tabletop purists. they would scream bloody murder even if this balanced the game perfectly.

#3 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:46 PM

I know the TableTop purists would scream at me. But they aren't the only ones playing, and, in fact, are probably no longer the majority (percentage-wise) of players. Regardless of their opinions on this idea, PGI hasn't listened to them in general anyways, which is exactly why I even bothered to post this in the first place. And just because a system doesn't exist in TableTop, we shouldn't be completely barred from trying it if we think it could work.

As to the fusion engines not being limited in their power output -- yeah, and? 100 tons of mechanized armor shouldn't be able to move under its own power and support its own weight without collapsing, but that didn't stop BattleTech from being created. I say that given PGI's track record so far, just because it isn't in BattleTech that shouldn't stop them from implementing it if it will make a thus-far totally borked system work better.

Edited by Spirit of the Wolf, 03 July 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#4 Nathan Foxbane

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

I like the idea itself, but the only weapons that were ever explicitly stated to have extreme power requirements were Gauss Rifles. PPCs did have some solid demands, but nothing a fusion engine cannot handle. The only author to really go into the power demands was Stackpole, but even he only ever used power draw as a plot device for Phelan Kell's Trial of Position. It never came up again... EVER.

Normally, game and lore wise, power draw is used to explain heat generation from an engine. My big nitpick for your idea would be BAP and ECM. They would never demand more power than a small laser at worst to operate constantly. Building an EW system that had such power requirements would poor engineering. The pulse lasers would have similar requirements to ER lasers as the rapid cycling would be more demanding than a simple discharge.

#5 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:36 PM

I was thinking that the system could be comparable to a switchgear. So when PPCs and Gauss are charged to fire, they cause a voltage spike that needs to be controlled so that the mech doesn't get damaged. Try to fire too many and the system stops those that can cause a power surge.

I guess it's possible to implement this as a front loaded limiter to at least PPCs, Gauss and Lasers. This could make it hard to fire combos of PPC and Gauss together or fire too many Lasers at once. This system seems better suited to adjust energy weapons than ballistics, (but maybe missiles could be incorporated too).

So what I'd like to tinker with is the scale used and the how weapons work against the scale. For sake of argument, what if the scale was 0 to 33. PPCs would be each set at 10, ERPPC set to 14, Gauss would be set to 15 and maybe set Lasers to their Damage LLs to 9, ML to 5 etc.

This could limit each grouped shot fired when trying to combine the different weapons and help reduce high pin point damage per trigger pull from these weapons. This can also match their existing cooldown numbers.

Other Ballistics weapons maybe set at 1 per trigger pull, or simply for combos that can deal damage at or beyond 33 damage.

For missiles possibly set it at 1 per missile and since the largest boat can fire 40 missiles at once, maybe set the cap for missiles separately at 40.

Therefore, I'd also leave off BAP, TAG and AMS from this system (and maybe ECM too or maybe set Disrupt mode to 5 and Counter to 3).

#6 Munk8

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

I'm a simple guys, so this may have zero relevance, but shouldn't an ac 20 have a higher draw? Otherwise, all we'll have are jager bombs on deck.

#7 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:44 PM

When I originally posted this, I also had this - http://www.qqmercs.c...80#comment-1060 - in mind, as it's a brilliant idea.

Seeing as how enormously complex it is though, I figured I'd post another idea that was slightly less intense.

I'd still prefer his idea over mine though.

#8 ShotgunWillie

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:05 PM

As a point of interest, this concept does have a basis in canon. It is explained to Phelan Kell Wolf Ward (whatever last name you want to give him, but he was "Phelan Kell Wolf" at the time, I believe) just before his Trial of Position that the power drain caused by the gauss rifle will prevent the firing of any other weapons for a second and that trying to fire all weapons at once in conjunction with a gauss rifle will cause some weapons not to fire. This actually comes into play when one of the Wolves on the other side of the trial from him tries to alpha strike him and winds up only firing their gauss rifle.

I think Kai Allard-Liao might have gotten a similar explanation when he was given the Yen Lo Wang that had been upgraded from an AC-20 to a Gauss rifle and from regular Medium Lasers to Medium Pulse Lasers.

#9 Syllogy

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:54 AM

I think the concept is good, but the idea needs to be simplified and refined. For example, it does not address AC20 Jagers, A1 Splatcats, or excessive LRM Boats, such as my LRM60 Awesome.

Here is what I came up with off of the top of my head:

Concept:
All weapons generate stress on the mech when fired. Energy weapons an Gauss Rifles consume large amounts of power. The shock of the explosion when firing Autocannons generates large amounts of recoil, and the act of firing Missiles generates larges amounts of thrust and heat.

The engine of a mech can only compensate for so much stress at once, so if a certain threshold is passed within a short length of time, hard-wired safety systems will prevent weapons that exceed those from firing.

Mechanic:
When a weapon fires, it generates a specific amount of stress. The weight of a mech and the size of its engine affect the maximum threshold of stress that the system can sustain.

Maximum Stress = (Engine Size * Mech Weight) / 1000

Weapon Stress Generation = Weapon Weight

Example 1: 6PPC Stalker
Spoiler


Example 2: AC40 Jager
Spoiler


Example 3: LRM60 Awesome
Spoiler

Edited by Syllogy, 04 July 2013 - 07:57 AM.


#10 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

Spoiler


This type of system should be able to help out.

I wonder how a HGN-732 might look with its 3PPC+Gauss?

If I follow correctly, then Stress Points match weight, so then I assume that a Gauss Rifle could equal 15. So the combo would be 7 + 7 + 7 + 15 = 36 if fired at once. Therefore, my guess is with an XL 325, (325*90) / 1000 = 29.25 "SP"

I'm not sure what value I should use to divide, but the average of the four weapons is 9.

29.25 / 9 = 3.25 (or 3 rounded down)

So possibly either three PPC or two PPC and Gauss would fire, if i applied the idea correctly.

I dunno, that's still seems to be a high alpha potential, possibly place a different limiter in the second equation maybe?





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