114 replies to this topic

[Stat1cVoiD]

I do not think that turning a TT into a FPS can be achieved by holding on to all the mechanics and rules of the board game.
BUT:
PGI altered one core mechanic and idea of BTech which now screws the balancing up big time:
(Either by misinterpretation or by purpose, but from my point of view it obviously didn't work out)

How can it be in the TT, that two similar, parallel aligned weapons, mounted on the same bodypart, hit different locations if fired at the same time?

A: It is impossible.

Epic Illustration:




That means: Mechs are not supposed fire all their weapons at once!
They fire their weapons one after another.

Epic Illustration:



But why would they do that?
Well, I am not a huge BTech-Geek, but I know some people who are and they said:
the targeting system is rubbish and the reactor cannot handle the energy spikes generated by multiple weapons, fired at the same time.

But from my point of view there is one simple reason why they do that:
It looks way more awesome!

If you imagine a Mech Fight, do you think of huge battle robots constantly spiting out bullets, rockets and lasers or just firing one big blast, followed by running in circles while they are waiting for their CDs to finish?

Exactly!

So how can this system be implemented into MW:O and how would the game profit?

How to implement?
The most obvious solution would be to force chainfire on ALL weapons, which would mean that you would have to wait 0.5 seconds to fire the next weapon after you fired ANY weapon.
Doing this however, would just break the game for obvious reasons.

So how to do it?
Two words:
Global Cooldowns.
Add global cooldowns to different types of weapons.

Weapons without global cooldown (can be fired at any time and AT THE SAME TIME, if the respective CDs are ready):

SL
ML
LL
LRM
SRM
SSRM
AC/2
Flamer
Machine Gun

Why those weapons are not affected:
- Lasers already spread their damage, given how they work.
- how many missiles can be fired at once is already limited by the number of missile tubes on your chassis.
- AC/2, MG and Flamer for very obvious reasons.


Weapons affected by global cooldown (The time behind the weapon's name shows how long they will trigger a global CD on all those weapons after being fired):

AC/5 (0 sec)
Ultra AC/5 (0 sec)
AC/10 (0.25 sec)
LB 10-X AC (0.25 sec)
AC/20 (0.5 sec)
Gauss (0.5 sec)
PPC (0.5 sec)

What does that mean:
You cannot fire those weapons at the same time anymore. After having fired one of the above mentioned weapons you have to wait for 0.25 to 0.5 seconds before being able to fire off any other of those weapons.
The only exception are the AC/5s. You can fire multiple AC/5s at the same time or along with another weapon of this group, but it is still affected by the global CD.

Examples:

- A Stalker with 4 PPCs and 2 MLs plays like he had forced chainfire on all PPCs, but can fire both of his MLs off whenever he likes.

- A Hunchback with 9 MLs can fire them all at once, at any time, given the ML's CDs are ready.

- A Highlander with 2 AC/5s, 2 PPCs, 1 LPL and 2 SSRM can fire the LPL and the SSRMs whenever they are ready. He could also do that with the AC/5s, as long as he doesn't fire the PPCs. If he fired 1 PPC he has to wait for 0.5 seconds to fire the 2nd or to fire the AC/5s.

How will the game profit?

First of all, this will solve most of the the high-Alpha-Problem, because all high pinpoint-damage weapons have to be fired successively, making it much harder for a player to hit the same component with all of his weapons.
Secondly, it will make Lasers and Missiles more attractive, since they can still be fired at once or along with the pinpoint-damage-weapons.
Thirdly, it will nerf the unfair defensive power of high-alpha builds, because you cannot fire your volley and immediately Torso-Twist anymore. Even PPC-builds will now have to face the target for a longer period of time, if they want to deal all their damage.
And last but not least:
The game would look and play so much better; instead of sniping one big volley, Mechs would unleash a Bulletstrom as intended.

What do you guys think of it?
And @PGI: PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT IT! IT WOULD MAKE THE GAME SO MUCH MORE FUN TO PLAY, TO WATCH AND IT WOULD RAISE THE SKILL-CAP FOR COMPETETIVE PLAY!

EDIT:
Current state of discussion as a short Q&A:
(Will be regularly updated and helps people who are new to this thread to see whats going on)

Spoiler

Q: So there would be no Alpha Strike anymore?

A: Following BTech, an Alpha Strike means to fire all your weapons in one single round.
But one round is the abstraction of 10 seconds in real time. If an Alpha Strike would meant to fire all weapons in ONE SINGLE blast, then they would logically have to hit in one single spot
(As they do in game, but not in the TT). Look at my amazing pieces of art again, to understand what I mean
You can say that with the GCD-System the Alpha would be closer to BTech than PGI's interpretation...

Q: Why are Lasers or SRMS f.e. not affected? I mean they also deal a lot of damage!?

A: The purpose of the GCD-System is NOT the decrease of the overall DPS. It is just about reducing the amount of focussed high-damage volleys.
Lasers and SRMs are already very likely to spread their damage over multiple components and should imho therefore not being affected.
If a player manages to keep all of his Lasers on one single component for a whole second, he deserves to deal this amount of damage, from my point of view.
It just raises the skill requirement of pinpoint-damage weapons to bring them in line with the rest.

Q: Why don't we solve the current Alpha-problem via a Heat-based solution?

A: Because Heat isn't supposed to adress such problems. Heat is nothing but a CADENCY limiter, that means it forces you to slow your rate of fire down and thereby it decreases your DPS (or in the TT your DPT(Damage Per Turn)).
It is supposed to punish energy builds mostly, because they usually have the advantage of lower slot and tonnage costs. It regulates how much damage you are able to dish out over a longer period of time, NOT in a single blow.
Misusing it however as a Burst-Damage limiter may break more than it could fix, because it will interfere with its intended reasonable purpose.
Furthermore weapons like the Gauss or AC/20 generate so few Heat, that they are nearly untouchable by this method.
From my point of view there is no rivalry between Heat and GCDs. Heat is a unique and useful keyaspect of the overall weapon balancing.
GCDs however have the purpose of keeping the combat system intact and versatile, together with bringing the skill-requirements in line across the board.

Q: What about a convergence based solution instead of yours?

A: That is my personal preference. One thing I really love about MW:O and what sets the game apart from many other titles of this genre, is the fact that your aim is always steady.
Being f.e. able to fire your weapons steady while moving adds a lot of dynamics to the game and makes hitting entirely skill based instead of any sort of random incident (besides not intended Hit-detection-problems).
By adding a convergence-system, you add LUCK to the game. That means if you hit in a certain situation is not depending on your skills, but on a random outcome of a algorithm.
Especially when regarding competetive play, luck shouldn't play a big role: It should be about personal capabilities.

Q: Won't the GDC-System be very susceptible to Macros?

A: No. Absolutely not. Macros use a certain timeframe or combination of keys, to bypass a given system. But if a weapon is blocked, because it is on CD, you can do whatever you want, it won't shoot.
There is currently no way to fire a weapon if it is on CD, no matter how fancy your macro is. And GCDs are indeed CDs,...

Q: How will the GDC-System work or how will it select when which weapon will be fired? I mean chainfire is currently pretty dumb in this regard,...

A: I answered this question, along with some examples in this post:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2525267

Q: Do you think your system is perfect and will fix all balancing issues?

A: Absolutely not. This system requires testing and no numbers are carved in stone. If weapons might become too strong or too weak due to this system, they might either be added or removed to the GCD-affected weapons, or their CDs might be tweaked.
Weapon balancing itself f.e. is not the main part of this solution and has to be done independently.
This is just ONE factor of gameplay balancing, not the holy grail.

KEEP UP THE GOOD DISCUSSION GUYS AND THX FOR YOUR FEEDBACK!

Edited by Stat1cVoiD, 05 July 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[stjobe]

You are going to catch so much flak for this idea... But it's actually not bad.

I've argued for burst-fire for ballistics to achieve the same effect since it's only the ballistics that don't have spread - and yes, the PPC is a ballistic weapon in this regard.

Anyway, +1 for the idea (and illustrations!), and good luck surviving the "MAH SKILLZ!" crew that's sure to be descending on you.

[Hawks]

I always got the impression (from the books) that the PPC was supposed to be more of a DoT weapon anyway...a bit more like Emperor Palpatine's force chain lighting thing at the end of Return of the Jedi than the single bolt we have at the moment.

[El Bandito]

I'm ok with removing Alpha strike all together.

[Der Hesse]

No Flak from me.
I like the idea. Thats what Mechwarrior should feel like.
But i doubt there is any Chance for such a Change so Close to the release.

Edit:
Should give you an extra like for the epic illustrations. ^^

Edited by Der Hesse, 04 July 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[Nexus Omega]

Love the post.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

It's a very interesting idea.
(why is the Commando dancing the Macarena (sp)? )

What about the C4 Splat-Cats though?

[Stat1cVoiD]

Ghost Rider LSOV, on 04 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

It's a very interesting idea.
(why is the Commando dancing the Macarena (sp)? )

What about the C4 Splat-Cats though?

The commando isn't dancing! He is in agony! A little bit more compassion for this poor dude pls!
(In fact this wasn't even supposed to be a commando, but just a geneneric Mech. It seems like my modern art leaves much room for interpretation )

Uhm, from my point of view the Splat-Cat is already limited to a very short and hardcapped range and SRMs spread their damage anyway. Given how weak SRMs currently are they would rather need a buff than a nerf, imho.

Edited by Stat1cVoiD, 04 July 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Tegiminis]

Forced chainfire is the only idea i support for anti-boat.

[MightyK]

very good!
i like it!

[30ft SMURF]

... I quite enjoy chain fire for a lot of weapons I put into a boat configuration, so it doesn't bother me exactly... though I believe alpha strikes are an important part of the game and storyline of the battletech universe. Nowhere in the tabletop rules did it say you couldn't fire all of your weapons in a single round, though you could fire less to save on heat or ammo... Perhaps the difference between a turn based game and a real time fps doesn't translate perfectly, but cooldown rates, heat generation and the new heat damage you take from going over 120% heat could provide the balance everyone is looking for. Sure you might blow up that enemy with your 2nd 6ppc alpha strike, but you might take yourself out with'em.

[stjobe]

30ft SMURF, on 04 July 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

alpha strikes are an important part of the game and storyline of the battletech universe. Nowhere in the tabletop rules did it say you couldn't fire all of your weapons in a single round

Sure, but also remember that a TT round is an abstraction of what happens during 10 seconds - nowhere in the tabletop rules does it state that an alpha means firing all your weapons in the same instant.

One interpretation of alpha is just firing all your weapons during 10 seconds, which may just as likely be with chain-fire mechanics.

[MeatForBrains]

GO FOR IT!

Put it as an Ask the Devs 42, and I'll place a "like" on it.

Also in the books torso twist usually was to evade fire when anticipated.
This would add the mechanic of when continually fire, and when it's more advantageous to fire again and take the hit or twist. Currently you fire as fast as possible and always stay twisted.


*BTW, based on your pictures, I'd prefer the one with the red X because it's obviously always a headshot. Just sayin'.

Edited by MeatForBrains, 04 July 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Para B]

I like it.

AlphaStrikeOnline has to die.

[MustrumRidcully]

Hey, quit stealing my idea and illustrating them awesomely. (Is that a word?).

Obviously I like it.
And steal away. Ideas want to be free. And copied. And love being hatched by multiple people simultanously. Quite the perverts, these ideas..

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 July 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Stat1cVoiD]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 July 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Hey, quit stealing my idea and illustrating them awesomely. (Is that a word?).

Obviously I like it.

I didn't steal it intentionally, because I didn't know you also had it...
This is the proof that collective consciousness exists in the human race! xD

You should consider yourself lucky to be able to look at such mighty fine pieces of art without having to pay for it!

[Zyllos]

I have suggested a Global cooldown before, so I don't think this is a bad idea. What this reflects in the CBT is that an alpha strike was not all at the same time but instead done over time (with in the 10s window was what I was thinking, maybe a 5s window in MWO would work).

Either way, I honestly think that when a weapon from a section is fired, all other weapons from other sections should be placed on cooldown of 0.5s.

[Stat1cVoiD]

Zyllos, on 04 July 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I have suggested a Global cooldown before, so I don't think this is a bad idea. What this reflects in the CBT is that an alpha strike was not all at the same time but instead done over time (with in the 10s window was what I was thinking, maybe a 5s window in MWO would work).

Either way, I honestly think that when a weapon from a section is fired, all other weapons from other sections should be placed on cooldown of 0.5s.

I think that a global CD like this would mostly hurt light and medium Mechs who need to boat S and MLs because those are the only weapons they can mount tonnage and/or hardpoint-wise... Therefore breaking more than it would fix.
Lasers are imho fine as they are (except LPLs, which need to have their Heat tweaked down again).
Why fix something that isn't broken?

MeatForBrains, on 04 July 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

GO FOR IT!

Put it as an Ask the Devs 42, and I'll place a "like" on it.

Also in the books torso twist usually was to evade fire when anticipated.
This would add the mechanic of when continually fire, and when it's more advantageous to fire again and take the hit or twist. Currently you fire as fast as possible and always stay twisted.


*BTW, based on your pictures, I'd prefer the one with the red X because it's obviously always a headshot. Just sayin'.

I don't think that this suggestion counts as a question, regarding how they want them to be formulated...

[BillyM]

Like it, but a few caveats...

Six...
Large...
Lasers...

Six...
SRM...
Sixers...

Gotta get more granular than just "global or not"...

-3LL shooting at once, ok... 6LL isn't
-3srm6's shooting at once, ok... 6srm6's isn't.

...so, weapon#-based global cooldown is required IMO

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 04 July 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Hmmm, a forced chain-fire suggestion that doesn't make weapons like lasers completely and utterly useless (like so many others seem to do)! I can dig this version of it.