306 replies to this topic

[Divine Decoy]

WolvesX, on 04 July 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

We need to know why, because the change was *tu*i*!

His logic and explination makes sense in one manner (for those TT fans, for logical purpuses in a gameing universe...) but the implimacation and numbers are WAY off. No personal hate/anger towards the team, just fix it. Don't do to LPLs like you did with "dragon bowling" from closed beta as our best defense against lights (collisions) was taken away. Don't do to LPLs what you nearly did to LRMS by making us wait nearly 3 months for a proper alignment (my car would kill me if i let it go a month unaligned....) Don't do the SRMs treatment, by hoping people won't use them and are ok with it since it stops splat cats.... err LPL boats (did we ever have those?)

[Homeless Bill]

Remember that one time changing weapon values to look pretty and uniform on a graph was awesome for game balance? Yeah... me neither. It was a serious what-the-**** moment. It was already a niche weapon; I can't imagine what the thought process was.

If it's in preparation for a re-working of pulse lasers in general, the number change for the large pulse should have waited until then. It's moves like this that make me seriously question what this game will look like at release and beyond.

People will say, "It's not that bad; I still run it and do fine," but that's irrelevant. You can make it work, but it's not in any way competitive. I can kick *** in an Awesome-9M with 3xLPL; that doesn't mean they're good weapons or that I'd be able to beat myself running the same 'mech with 4xLL (or just a better 'mech =P).

[WolvesX]

I don't hate at any of the devs. I'm glad that someone made a BT game.

TheDeckardCain, on 04 July 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

I love how the OP has a sense of entitlement, demanding for an answer. I believe PGI has already answered this question. I believe it was something to the effect of they were bringing in line (scale wise) vs the other pulses. They have data we don't. It could very well be that quite a few were using LPL to great effect. I don't think what little heat was added nerfed the large pulse into obscurity....

DATA? Why nerf a weapon that IS not good?

Divine Decoy, on 04 July 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

His logic and explination makes sense in one manner (for those TT fans, for logical purpuses in a gameing universe...) but the implimacation and numbers are WAY off. No personal hate/anger towards the team, just fix it. Don't do to LPLs like you did with "dragon bowling" from closed beta as our best defense against lights (collisions) was taken away. Don't do to LPLs what you nearly did to LRMS by making us wait nearly 3 months for a proper alignment (my car would kill me if i let it go a month unaligned....) Don't do the SRMs treatment, by hoping people won't use them and are ok with it since it stops splat cats.... err LPL boats (did we ever have those?)

Makes sence? Really?

I maybe just to high hearted, but I really wanna know. I wanna know because I care about this game and I want it to be good. What do I say?

I want it to be AWESOME!

The problem is, that the balance just ******, so many balantly bad ideas. Wow.

[Aim64C]

The buffs to the small pulse laser were good... maybe even too good.

While damage on my Jenner 7F has dropped running 6x small pulse lasers rather than 6x medium lasers - my kills and overall performance has remained about the same (if not better) - which is precisely what I was going for. I also have fewer heat issues, and the thing can generally out-perform any light that doesn't have auto-core enabled (streaks).

I didn't play with medium pulse lasers much before the pulse laser change - but they seem to be okay... perhaps stupidly short ranged, but they hit fairly hard.

There's absolutely no reason in the world to employ a large pulse laser. You're better off freeing up the critical to mount a PPC, or employing a battery of large lasers, instead.

Honestly, I think all pulse lasers should apply damage over 0.5 seconds like the small pulse laser. The large pulse laser needs either a reduction in heat or a fairly sizable increase in damage.

It may be 'normalized' and 'balanced' across pulse lasers... but there are other energy weapons outside of the laser portfolio.

[WolvesX]

I really hope for an answer.

[Victor Morson]

WolvesX, on 04 July 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I really hope for an answer.

I hate to reference batman in two different posts in two different days, but I am getting a laugh out of Garth doing that "Says something, but when you turn around he's already gone" thing that gets joked about all the time.

[Hythos]

The I.S. Large Pulse LASER may be mediocre (which is somewhat the case in Battletech); but double the range, drop a ton, and it becomes much more attractive. The current weapon-balancing happening might just be in preparation of the Clans (with stats yet to be revealed)- else, they'll need to be balanced again in 2(?) months. LRM's are 'where we (PGI) feel it should be' (yes, ALSO referencing 5-ton LRM-20's capable of point-blank firing w/ guidance).

[WolvesX]

Hythos, on 04 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

The I.S. Large Pulse LASER may be mediocre (which is somewhat the case in Battletech); but double the range, drop a ton, and it becomes much more attractive. The current weapon-balancing happening might just be in preparation of the Clans (with stats yet to be revealed)- else, they'll need to be balanced again in 2(?) months. LRM's are 'where we (PGI) feel it should be' (yes, ALSO referencing 5-ton LRM-20's capable of point-blank firing w/ guidance).

13 months to clans, just saying.

[jakucha]

Sephlock, on 04 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

They're normalizing things before further tweaking.

I guess it's so they can compare the usage data easier...

We may not be using them but not everyone knows better, and hell... even I can't resist using MGs and LBX sometimes and I know better .

What are you doing answering the thread seriously instead of making terrible snarky comments? Get out of here!

[A Man In A Can]

Hythos, on 04 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

The I.S. Large Pulse LASER may be mediocre (which is somewhat the case in Battletech); but double the range, drop a ton, and it becomes much more attractive. The current weapon-balancing happening might just be in preparation of the Clans (with stats yet to be revealed)- else, they'll need to be balanced again in 2(?) months. LRM's are 'where we (PGI) feel it should be' (yes, ALSO referencing 5-ton LRM-20's capable of point-blank firing w/ guidance).

This guy gets it.

Clan Large Pulse Laser
6 tons, 2 crits, 10.60 total damage, 2.12 damage per pulse, 5 pulses per shot, .75 seconds duration per shot, 3.25 seconds cooldown, 2.65dps, 2.13hps, 600 meters optimal range, 1200 meters max range.

Edited by CYBRN4CR, 04 July 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[Blackadder]

Hythos, on 04 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

The I.S. Large Pulse LASER may be mediocre (which is somewhat the case in Battletech); but double the range, drop a ton, and it becomes much more attractive. The current weapon-balancing happening might just be in preparation of the Clans (with stats yet to be revealed)- else, they'll need to be balanced again in 2(?) months. LRM's are 'where we (PGI) feel it should be' (yes, ALSO referencing 5-ton LRM-20's capable of point-blank firing w/ guidance).

Yes, lets make substandard weapons completely useless, excluding SPL currently, because we will introduce completely OP tech in X months, which will only make our first year tech even more worthless, thus blowing any chance for some diversity while having things be somewhat equal.

[FupDup]

CYBRN4CR, on 04 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

This guy gets it.

Clan Large Pulse Laser
6 tons, 2 crits, 10.60 total damage, 2.12 damage per pulse, 5 pulses per shot, .75 seconds duration per shot, 3.25 seconds cooldown, 2.65dps, 2.13hps, 600 meters optimal range, 1200 meters max range.

Clan energy weapons deal more damage than Inner Sphere ones, so you can increase that damage to at least 11.6.

[A Man In A Can]

FupDup, on 04 July 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Clan energy weapons deal more damage than Inner Sphere ones, so you can increase that damage to at least 11.6.

Maximum total damage projection is 12.

10.6 x (10/9) ~= 11.8
10.8 x (10/9) = 12

We'll have to see if PGI gives the clan versions a damage boost, but most likely not. Even in that scenario, the cLPL is decent enough with the carried over I.S. LPL damage heat and recycle times.

Edited by CYBRN4CR, 04 July 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Postumus]

Tezcatli, on 04 July 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Hmm. Should I use up an additional 2 tons with additional heat for shorter duration shots and .6 more damage? Nope.

They need to either reduce the tonnage or reduce the heat. It's just not practical.

2.6 damage over the large laser. .6 damage over the PPC, but it's the same weight. As for duration, that could be construed as a plus or minus - it's easier to hit fast mechs with beams than ballistics if they aren't idiots. Also it has no minimum range, unlike a PPC.

The problem is that the large pulse, and to a certain amount also the medium pulse DPS is not enough to justify using it over a beam laser or a PPC. However, this is as much the fault of the PPC buffs as the large pulse laser's mediocre stats. PPCs generate so little heat now compared to a large laser that there isn't much of a middle ground between them for the large pulse to claim.

A good fix would be to leave the heat, but increase large pulse damage, reduce duration or decrease the recycle time. As a 7-ton weapon, it is going to be compared with the PPC, so the tradeoff should be less range for more damage. Right now you are sacrificing 240 meters of optimal range for an extra .6 damage. If the damage was increased to about 12 or 12.5, this might make sense.

[Rahnu]

Divine Decoy, on 04 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I don't need to "KNOW WHY" i just need them to fix it. Either go back to what it was, OR lower the heat .5 to .8 degrees... my LPL boat is nuttered, and there is no need to use LPLs if not as a close range brawler..... LLs and even ER LLs are now so much better.....

I'd say they need their heat to be lower than regular lasers, NOT higher. They already suffer from the double-whammy of higher weight/crit slot reqs and lower (MUCH lower) range, so why should they also suffer from higher heat generation? It really makes no sense.

If they MUST generate more heat, they should do damage commensurate with their penalties. The combination of the increased weight, lower range, and higher heat generation mandates an at least 50% higher DPS than standard lasers, otherwise they serve no purpose.

Edited by Zyrusticae, 04 July 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Aim64C]

CYBRN4CR, on 04 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

This guy gets it.

Clan Large Pulse Laser
6 tons, 2 crits, 10.60 total damage, 2.12 damage per pulse, 5 pulses per shot, .75 seconds duration per shot, 3.25 seconds cooldown, 2.65dps, 2.13hps, 600 meters optimal range, 1200 meters max range.

Then the PPC really needs some attention, in a bad way.

The clan weapons are going to be fundamentally unbalancing.

Take the Nova (Blackhawk). Clan ER Medium Lasers deal 7 points of damage, generate 5 points of heat, weigh 1 ton, take up 1 critical, and have a range of 450 meters (for a max range of around 900, following the existing trend).

It carries 12.

That's 84 points - or 8.4 points of damage at each ten-millisecond increment.

Sure - that's 60 points of heat... but let's be real - the Blackhawk can handle at least one of those without shutting down.

On the plus side - it would be absolutely hilarious to see the current sniper meta get their *** kicked by a medium mech that makes -any- center torso disappear in a single blinding flash of light.

Though the Super Nova should be likewise entertaining - 6 Clan ER Large Lasers that deal 10 damage each at 750 meters.

Though in the case of the ER Large laser - the current IS range and damage of the ER is greater than its stated maximums in tabletop... which means the Clans might be clear out to 800 or 900 meters with their ER versions with even higher damage outputs.

The Clan Pulse Lasers look more attractive - but when you figure that the Clan ERPPC is 6 tons, two criticals, deals 15 points of damage (So, it's an Energy Gauss)... the Clan Large Pulse Laser doesn't look nearly as good as the CERPPC.

The Clan Large Pulse Laser runs into the same problem that the current Large Pulse Laser does. While it's more competitive with the CERPPC than the Large Pulse Laser is with the PPC - even by tabletop standards the weapon under-performs.

The main advantage to using a pulse laser was the to-hit advantage it gave - which is why you might use it over a PPC (which, if I remember correctly, had some to-hit penalties under more situations).

That doesn't exactly exist in MWO.

If the current meta is any indication of the type of builds people will be running once the Clans hit... whoo boy!

60-point PPC alphas (4x PPCs).

60+? - point ER Large Laser alphas (with 360 degree torso twist on a 90 ton mech - ... one of my favorite clan mechs outside of the Timberwolf and Stormcrow... but I'm sure that's going to go over well).

[MustrumRidcully]

WolvesX, on 04 July 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

But still, this is just a horrible idea.

Why should a game balance person think that this is a good idea.

I wanna know.

Also next patch: AC20 is now in line with MG or what?

Remember when they wrote something to the effect that they don't want spreadsheet warrior opinion, t hey want information of the game?

I don't know why they said that, because their methodology sounds to me as if they're using spreadsheet warrioring as argumentation base.

Not that spreadsheet warrioring is fundamentally the wrong approach. YOu just need to align your spreadsheets with reality, and not some mathematical ideal that doesn't represent the game at all.

You get data from the game, you create a model, you make a prediction of the impact on the change, make the change, get data from the game, adjust the model to fit the new data where necessary, make a new prediciton of the impact of a change, make the change, get data from the game, adjust the model to fit the new data where necessary, make a new prediction of the impact of a change, make the change, get data from the game...

You get it. Whether you do this with spreadsheets or something else doesn't really matter. The key thing is the cycle of data gathering and model refinement.

I went through that myself, and I claim that my model is better now than when it started (but still imperfect, since I don't really handle subtilities like convergence, beam duration or splash damage), and that I could make better reasoned balance changes based on that model than PGI so far has done. Maybe that's hybris, we'll never know, because I can't set up my private test server.

[armyof1]

The mistake of the devs when balancing weapons is mainly one thing that should be so darn obvious. They almost neglect the range of weapons in so many cases. LBX vs ACs, medium and large pulse lasers vs regular ones, SRMs vs anything else. The damage numbers and requirements for LL vs LPL would actually make more sense if they had the same range.

[Johnny Reb]

Obviously, it just out classed the erppc and ppc!

[Deathlike]

Postumus, on 04 July 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

2.6 damage over the large laser. .6 damage over the PPC, but it's the same weight. As for duration, that could be construed as a plus or minus - it's easier to hit fast mechs with beams than ballistics if they aren't idiots. Also it has no minimum range, unlike a PPC.

You mean 1.6 damage over the LL.