306 replies to this topic

[Jesus Box]

It's another example of them not knowing what they're doing or just intending to do things they don't need to do in order to "fix" things that don't need fixing. It's sad that this game has only gotten worse since Closed Beta. I wish I could go back to the pre-ECM period when the game was actually good. Except for a few underpowered weapons; the game was in a good place back then... It reminds me of how WoW was in a good place right before BC and during BC before Wrath. It was all downhill from there...

[subgenius]

jeffsw6, on 30 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I haven't bothered reading the latest patch notes. Are you saying that the LL heat-scale-group was linked together with ERLL and LPL, similar to PPC/ERPPC group? I mean, ERLL and LPL are total trash weapons anyway so no one will care right away, but wow ... tweaking the heat-scale system to make it even worse than it already was.

Kind of like wrecking your car, then getting out and kicking a few dents in the fender for good measure.

Man, the endless negativity from some of you guys is just exhausting... So all the large laser types are now in the same heat boat bucket. What exactly does that do for real impact? How often do you simultaneously fire your ER large lasers with your LPLs?

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill here...

As said above, one direct improvement to LPL and MPL is in the pipe with reduced beam durations (effectively improving accuracy and DPS). We'll see just how helpful this is. I also would love to run more LPLs.

[FupDup]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Man, the endless negativity from some of you guys is just exhausting... So all the large laser types are now in the same heat boat bucket. What exactly does that do for real impact? How often do you simultaneously fire your ER large lasers with your LPLs?

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill here...

As said above, one direct improvement to LPL and MPL is in the pipe with reduced beam durations (effectively improving accuracy and DPS). We'll see just how helpful this is. I also would love to run more LPLs.

Reducing the LPL duration to ZERO seconds would still leave it inferior to the PPC in most ways, except for dealing 0.6 more damage and being stronger within 90m (which is negligible).

The LPL needs more damage and lower heat (11 and 8 respectively?) along with a duration reduction.

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[subgenius]

Perhaps. How about we see what this change does before we start screaming and running for the pitchforks?

Also, don't forget that PPC heat has a bump too. I'm not sure how hot you like to run, but even 2 ERPPCs generate quite a bit of heat pre-patch, so it's only a small jump to the point where these can easily cause overheats.

Nothing more fun than headshotting a stalker that gets overheated

Edited by subgenius, 30 July 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[FupDup]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Perhaps. How about we see what this change does before we start screaming and running for the pitchforks?

How about we try to discuss upcoming changes based on our current knowledge and mechanics, to determine their likely impact and possibly suggest ways to improve their impact? We already have almost all of the numbers--all we're missing is the new LPL duration.


PPC:
-7 tons
-3 slots
-8 heat (soon to be 9)
-10 damage
-Pinpoint accurate
-Very fast projectile
-540m optimal range (90m minimum)


LPL:
-7 tons
-2 slots
-8.5 heat
-10.6 damage
-Not pinpoint (currently 0.75s, soon to be lowered)
-Hitscan
-300m optimal range


All that's been announced for LPL changes is a beam duration reduction. Its other stats will still suck popsickles, and the weapon will still be inferior unless they pull a fast one on us. I mean seriously, it's just not that hard to see. If we really want to rely on unannounced changes, then we should pretty much all just stick our heads in the sand right now and never discuss upcoming features ever again.

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Also, don't forget that PPC heat has a bump too. I'm not sure how hot you like to run, but even 2 ERPPCs generate quite a bit of heat pre-patch, so it's only a small jump to the point where these can easily cause overheats.

Nothing more fun than headshotting a stalker that gets overheated

Standard PPCs will still make only 0.5 higher heat than the LPL after the heat gets increased.

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[Matheos]

I just used my dual LL and dual LPL K2. The heat is definitely higher and I had to be more careful in chaining shots together, but I was still able to take out a couple enemies and do decent damage.

It's not great, but it's not terrible.

[Draslin Darkforge]

How is it a surprise that any weapon system has arbitrary changes made? The underlying system (hit detection) is badly broken, so any analysis or fixes made upon that analysis is inherently flawed/broken. They are worrying about game balance, when they should be worrying about game function. Because, simply put, it doesn't.

[subgenius]

MadProphet, on 30 July 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

How is it a surprise that any weapon system has arbitrary changes made? The underlying system (hit detection) is badly broken, so any analysis or fixes made upon that analysis is inherently flawed/broken. They are worrying about game balance, when they should be worrying about game function. Because, simply put, it doesn't.

More hyperbole please? My game functions great (as evidenced by the gauss shaped holes I'm making. Of course it's not perfect, but accuracy is far better than before the netcode improvements.

I'm hoping for more as well (damn spiders) but you make yourself look a little silly when you claim that the game doesn't function at all.

[FupDup]

Um, why the crap did this thread get moved to patch feedback? The mod who did it even matched it up with today's patch even though this thread was made on July 4th. Trigger-happy mods...

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[subgenius]

FupDup, on 30 July 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

How about we try to discuss upcoming changes based on our current knowledge and mechanics, to determine their likely impact and possibly suggest ways to improve their impact?

Of course! But at the same time, let's not play spreadsheet warrior crossed with chicken little.

Your analysis conveniently ignores the non-numerical benefits of a fast-pulse hitscan weapon against fast targets at close range (something the PPC is absolutely useless for). In general I prefer to use PPCs over LPLs at the moment too, but these stairstep (and announced) tweaks are moving the bar. Hopefully to a balnced place where it's more of a toss up, but I dare you to show me a perfectly balanced MMO. Every game has this challenge, and PGI is addressing it here just like many, many others.

[FupDup]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Of course! But at the same time, let's not play spreadsheet warrior crossed with chicken little.

Predicting that the LPL buff won't be enough to make it useful compared to the PPC (or anything else, really) =/= being chicken little.

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Your analysis conveniently ignores the non-numerical benefits of a fast-pulse hitscan weapon against fast targets at close range (something the PPC is absolutely useless for).

Alternatively, you can merely not let people get within 90m of you--or just use ERPPCs and deal with the higher heat (which is what I do).

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[subgenius]

FupDup, on 30 July 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Predicting that the LPL buff won't be enough to make it useful compared to the PPC (or anything else, really) =/= being chicken little.

Alternatively, you can merely not let people get within 90m of you--or just use ERPPCs and deal with the higher heat (which is what I do).

That alone wouldn't be chicken little, but incessant attempts you and 10 other guys are making to sell this game as "hopelessly broken" certainly are. We get that they don't follow your design philosophy. Time to realize they don't dance to the same tune as you and move on.

As for the 90m case, now you've been forced to adopt a hotter weapon to deal with the situation. One that will be even more difficult to manage in a brawl with a light circling you. I wonder what kind of pulsed, short range laser like weapon could possibly deal with this kind of situation...

[FupDup]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

That alone wouldn't be chicken little, but incessant attempts you and 10 other guys are making to sell this game as "hopelessly broken" certainly are. We get that they don't follow your design philosophy. Time to realize they don't dance to the same tune as you and move on.

My design philosophy is that every weapon ought to be useful for a minimum of one purpose that it is better at than anything else of comparable size. Yes, it is in fact very clear that they don't dance to my tune based on my previous sentence. No, I will not move on because a long-range meta dominated by PPCs isn't nearly as enjoyable as a mixed meta where people would be constantly trying new tactics.

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

As for the 90m case, now you've been forced to adopt a hotter weapon to deal with the situation. One that will be even more difficult to manage in a brawl with a light circling you. I wonder what kind of pulsed, short range laser like weapon could possibly deal with this kind of situation...

Or I can just smack them with 2 ERPPC and 2 ML (my current K2 build).

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[LastPaladin]

WolvesX, on 04 July 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

PROS:
- 0.6 more Damage (!)

I agree they didn't need a nerf, but you missed a couple pros. First, they do better pinpoint damage than regular lasers, and second, they take 1 less internal slot than a PPC. Not the best pros, but you might as well count them to be fair.

[subgenius]

FupDup, on 30 July 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Or I can just smack them with 2 ERPPC and 2 ML (my current K2 build).

And suffer the higher heat consequences while sucking up more internal slots.

[FupDup]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

And suffer the higher heat consequences while sucking up more internal slots.

Two whole slots extra (3 slots per ERPPC, 2 per LPL) isn't exactly what I'd call "sucking up" internal slots.

Higher heat is barely a consequence because there are no penalties until you reach 100% heat. You can hover right around ~80-95% the whole game without anything bad ever happening. And even with the extra heat, the ERPPC is just plain more versatile. That LPL Cat is going to spend a lot of the game waiting behind a wall for a brawl to break out, while I'll be pumping out damage for the whole match. And if people get close, I can still keep dishing out damage. Furthermore, hillhumping effectively negates any heat buildup because I'm in no immediate danger (can wait as long as I need to after a series of alphas).

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Asmosis]

Honestly if they insist on giving lasers a heat penalty like alpha point weapons, they need to remove beam duration completely so that its just an animation thing. They are already at a pretty large disadvantage in the translation from TT rules to MWO due to the introduction of the beam.

Otherwise all the large lasers just became useless as the damage is spread anyway and the WHOLE POINT of the heat system was to prevent alpha strikes to one specific section. If thats *not* what they are balancing around then they missed the point of why they are balancing it in the first place.

Its just, aurgh.

[WolvesX]

If the thread was moved because it was brought to the DEV teams attention, I'm fine with the move to feedback.

[FREDtheDEAD]

subgenius, on 30 July 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

More hyperbole please? My game functions great (as evidenced by the gauss shaped holes I'm making. Of course it's not perfect, but accuracy is far better than before the netcode improvements.

I'm hoping for more as well (damn spiders) but you make yourself look a little silly when you claim that the game doesn't function at all.

The last 3 or so patch feedback threads have been full of hit detection topics. As it stands, quite a few people have trouble with damage registering. It's not a new thing, it's been well documented and it only affects certain combinations of players in a random way. Some players don't seem to be affected at all while others are severely affected. In some cases players confirm both saw a hit but no damage. In some cases the paper doll will flash but no damage is registered. In some cases the wrong side of the mech will take damage (this is a very old problem).

It's not an HSR mechanic where a player can get hit when it appears to them they've been missed - that's an intended behaviour of HSR with high internet lag between players.

Devs have talked about a problem with HSR and ping jitter that could be the cause of this and a potential problem deep within CryEnine causing the 'getting hit on the wrong side' issue that's been with us since closed beta.

Hit registration/damage is an acknowledged problem and an on-going issue.

(((BTW, easy with the insults there Either keep a respectful tone or don't bother contributing to the forums at all - the Terms of Service and Forum Rules are very clear on posts being polite.)))

Edited by Xajorkith, 31 July 2013 - 01:53 AM.

[Anais Opal]

We should have a poll on whether Paul should step down/step away/not be involved in the final decisions anymore.

He is MURDERING the game with his stupid ideas....