48 replies to this topic

[Tor Gungnir]

If a Jaeger can manage close the distance, under the hellfire of PPC/Gauss fire, to get within range to actually use his dual AC20 he freaking deserves to reap the rewards!

[MustrumRidcully]

Tor Gungnir, on 05 July 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

If a Jaeger can manage close the distance, under the hellfire of PPC/Gauss fire, to get within range to actually use his dual AC20 he freaking deserves to reap the rewards!

1) I love my AC/40 Jagermech.
2) Wouldn't it be cool if there were some kind of alternative builds that could compete at that distance? Why's the AC/10 or the LBX-10 so useless? Why the MPL? Why doesn't the LPL or SRM compete? Or failing that, why can't I at least build a 12 ML boat to compete with the Quad PPC boats at close range?

Fix convergence + group fire so boating doesn't have all the advantages. Balance the weapons better so there are more meaningful (aka "Non-gimping") choices.

But holy hell, don't take away my AC/40 Jagermech with some inane hardpoint restrictions or something like that: Screw your canon, I like playing it, and I will like playing it when you nerf it or buff the alternative options. (And as much as I love my AC/40, I always intended my JM6-S to run SRMs, not Gauss Rifles, not AC/20. )

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 July 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Tor Gungnir, on 05 July 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

If a Jaeger can manage close the distance, under the hellfire of PPC/Gauss fire, to get within range to actually use his dual AC20 he freaking deserves to reap the rewards!

Even if they invalidate every other brawler weapon (MPLs,LPLs, AC-10, LBX, SRMs) by doing so? And getting into brawling range is not that hard on city maps or by using a tunnel...

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 05 July 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Migwelder]

Have to say that one of the reasons I uninstalled the game a few days ago is because of mainly ppc's but also the almost instant destruction of lighter mechs in a couple of seconds of gameplay by usually an ac40 jager. This is already annoying enough as it's so similar to the ppc boat situation in that taking one chance and being exposed for just a tiny amount of time will result in a huge pinpoint hit but when I see a jager blatantly using seismic and just waiting for a light to crest a hill and BOOM! Forty damage and that mech is now totally screwed for however much longer he has to live, I really lost my interest in the game right there.

I like using lasers or pulse lasers but in my opinion it's only really for eye candy in this game as in general they just scratch paint whilst generating a load of heat compared to the weapons which actually do instant damage in one solid hit. It's sad as I have a soft spot for battletech and mechwarrior but I think that was the only thing keeping me playing this, fond memories.

Why would'nt anyone love that kind of power in a game like this? It was clear to me early on when running two cataphract variants one running two large lasers, two med lasers and two SRM4's compared to the other quad boating AC5's, the second felt hilariously strong where as the first is limited by range and then by heat aswell. The ammunition requirement for the second mech was no real hindrance considering I did'nt need to worry about heat sinks so could carry a ton of ammo. the sad thing is it is it kills off other weapons as you only use them for your own amusement if you don't mind using an inferior weapon for how it looks.

Edited by Migwelder, 05 July 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Takony]

AC40 is the only effective brawling config in this meta, even though it's a glass cannon.I became bored with ppc sniping so switched to it, to play some evil ninja villain in PUG land. When srms were good, I played Cent bombs coring Fatlases and whatnot.Same stuff just on more chassi.

[BillyM]

If I see one more person blab about "if he gets in range he deserves it..." I'm going to lose it...

The AC40 does 20dmg at nearly 600m, you want to see limited range, LB10X or SRM's...

THAT is range limitation!

(Obviously, that is my suggested nerf, reduce distance-max by half over optimal. 40dmg at 270, 0dmg at 540, NOW they have worked for it.)

--billyM

[Ph30nix]

Migwelder, on 05 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Have to say that one of the reasons I uninstalled the game a few days ago is because of mainly ppc's but also the almost instant destruction of lighter mechs in a couple of seconds of gameplay by usually an ac40 jager. This is already annoying enough as it's so similar to the ppc boat situation in that taking one chance and being exposed for just a tiny amount of time will result in a huge pinpoint hit but when I see a jager blatantly using seismic and just waiting for a light to crest a hill and BOOM! Forty damage and that mech is now totally screwed for however much longer he has to live, I really lost my interest in the game right there.

I like using lasers or pulse lasers but in my opinion it's only really for eye candy in this game as in general they just scratch paint whilst generating a load of heat compared to the weapons which actually do instant damage in one solid hit. It's sad as I have a soft spot for battletech and mechwarrior but I think that was the only thing keeping me playing this, fond memories.

Why would'nt anyone love that kind of power in a game like this? It was clear to me early on when running two cataphract variants one running two large lasers, two med lasers and two SRM4's compared to the other quad boating AC5's, the second felt hilariously strong where as the first is limited by range and then by heat aswell. The ammunition requirement for the second mech was no real hindrance considering I did'nt need to worry about heat sinks so could carry a ton of ammo. the sad thing is it is it kills off other weapons as you only use them for your own amusement if you don't mind using an inferior weapon for how it looks.

why are you trying to fight a Jager mech in a light anyways? especially a ac/40? thats your problem right there. and then why are you getting into range of its seismic before taking your shots?

This is not a weapon or mech problem, this a pilot and strategy problem.

Edited by Ph30nix, 05 July 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[SixBottles]

Ph30nix, on 05 July 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

oh you can do 4 AC/5 for 32 tons and get 20 damage
or i can do 2 AC/20 for 28 tons and get 40.....
wait what? More damage for LESS tonnage? and less heat! screw that why would i gimp myself with the ac/5!!!
okay well then ill go for the UAC/5 thats gotta be better!
4 UAC/5 is 36 tons for 20 damage!!!

to make sense of what im trying to say, Ballistics while powerful are completely FORKED when it comes to balancing the differnt variations of them.

oh c'mon thats complete BS...

4 ac5's WILL DO only 20 pinpoint damage but will U MORE THAN DOUBLE your rate of fire, so u will do A LOT more damage...
same goes for the uac's and ac2's...

ill agree that the ac20 is the best build of your examples but simply writing false statements is going to make this discussion more pointless then it already is...

Edited by SixBottles, 05 July 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Ngamok]

@ Ragnar. I am constantly in games with 3-6 JM6-xx. They have just been super popular even though we are now in the 3rd month since they have been out. I see the 2xAC/20, 4xAC/5, and the 4-6xAC/2 builds all over. I don't think it was the last patch since they've been all over.

[Migwelder]

Ph30nix, on 05 July 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

why are you trying to fight a Jager mech in a light anyways? especially a ac/40? thats your problem right there. and then why are you getting into range of its seismic before taking your shots?

This is not a weapon or mech problem, this a pilot and strategy problem.

There are little things in this game called hills, unless you have seismic to see through walls which I don't then you have to actually go over hills to see the enemy. What happens in this game when you take a look over hills to actually see the enemy? Oh yeah, you take a risk of a ppc barrage to the face or risk meeting some guy with AC20's who just needs to land one shot to effectively cripple you.

Lights survive by using speed and the element of surprise, where is the element of surprise when the enemy knows exactly where you're coming from at a possible range of 400 metres? That's not the be all and end all vs lasers as you'll generally take a lot less damage or damage spread over multiple parts from them if you're moving/twisting, those pinpoint alpha's from PPC's or AC20 hit you and whatever part of the mech they hit is instantly screwed.

Edited by Migwelder, 05 July 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Ph30nix]

SixBottles, on 05 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

oh c'mon thats complete BS...

4 ac5's WILL DO only 20 pinpoint damage but will U MORE THAN DOUBLE your rate of fire, so u will do A LOT more damage...
same goes for the uac's and ac2's...

ill agree that the ac20 is the best build of your examples but simply writing false statements is going to make this discussion more pointless then it already is...

yea higher DPS, but everyone seems to be of the opinion that sustained DPS is less valuable then high burst damage.
And again your getting that Higher DPS at the cost of 4 more tons that in some mechs could be put into other weapons to do even more damage.
i was really just trying to say its the weakness of the AC/5, AC/10 and LBX/10 that also encourages ac/20 usage

Migwelder, on 05 July 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

There are little things in this game called hills, unless you have seismic to see through walls which I don't then you have to actually go over hills to see the enemy. What happens in this game when you take a look over hills to actually see the enemy? Oh yeah, you take a risk of a ppc barrage to the face or risk meeting some guy with AC20's who just needs to land one shot to effectively cripple you.

Lights survive by using speed and the element of surprise, where is the element of surprise when the enemy knows exactly where you're coming from at a possible range of 400 metres? That's not the be all and end all vs lasers as you'll generally take a lot less damage or damage spread over multiple parts from them if you're moving/twisting, those pinpoint alpha's from PPC's or AC20 hit you and whatever part of the mech they hit is instantly screwed.

when im in my light i never go OVER hills, i go around them. Because everyone on the other side is almost always looking at the top of the hill for the first person to show their face. Or i go long way around and get behind them.
i will say it sucks having a limb blown off in one salvo but that is something that WILL happen in multiple situations even if they throw a ton of damage nerfs around that dont break the game.

[Migwelder]

Ph30nix, on 05 July 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

yea higher DPS, but everyone seems to be of the opinion that sustained DPS is less valuable then high burst damage.
And again your getting that Higher DPS at the cost of 4 more tons that in some mechs could be put into other weapons to do even more damage.
i was really just trying to say its the weakness of the AC/5, AC/10 and LBX/10 that also encourages ac/20 usage

when im in my light i never go OVER hills, i go around them. Because everyone on the other side is almost always looking at the top of the hill for the first person to show their face. Or i go long way around and get behind them.
i will say it sucks having a limb blown off in one salvo but that is something that WILL happen in multiple situations even if they throw a ton of damage nerfs around that dont break the game.

Thats the reward of the high burst damage weapons though, it takes just a split second to put instant, crippling damage into one point on the enemy. Sustained DPS is fine if you can sit there pouring it into an enemy but it means keeping them in sight the whole time exposing you to risk alot longer.

[Tor Gungnir]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 05 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Even if they invalidate every other brawler weapon (MPLs,LPLs, AC-10, LBX, SRMs) by doing so?

Did I say anything like that?

No, I did not.

Stop jumping to conclusions.

[Arrogusss]

Can someone please respond to this question, anyone reading this post about AC40???

Is there that much of a difference between a mech getting hit by 2xerppc AND 1xGauss at the same time 35ish damage, or getting a dual ac20 hit from a jager 40ish damage? QQ over 5 dmg eh?
Five extra damage in theory with the penalty of low ammo per ton for ac20, standard survivable engine vs the XL it takes to handle the weight of ac20x2. Less heat yes, but less range and a whole 5 damage extra. Not even getting into the fact that your alpha usually IS 40 damage only if you're packing ammo instead of MedLasers.

[Migwelder]

Arrogusss, on 05 July 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Can someone please respond to this question, anyone reading this post about AC40???

Is there that much of a difference between a mech getting hit by 2xerppc AND 1xGauss at the same time 35ish damage, or getting a dual ac20 hit from a jager 40ish damage? QQ over 5 dmg eh?
Five extra damage in theory with the penalty of low ammo per ton for ac20, standard survivable engine vs the XL it takes to handle the weight of ac20x2. Less heat yes, but less range and a whole 5 damage extra. Not even getting into the fact that your alpha usually IS 40 damage only if you're packing ammo instead of MedLasers.

5 damage is'nt the problem, it's the instant hit on one point of the enemy mech for high damage in a split second which is the problem. Where did anyone say that 35 damage from ppc's and gauss was fine where as AC40's were overpowered? No one said that. They're both a symptom of high damage pinpoint burst alpha's being the strongest condemning other weapons to the rubbish bin as you have to hang around that much longer to get a result.

Edited by Migwelder, 05 July 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Training Instructor]

It's when you see the missile variant Jager still sporting ac40 that you know the current balance is screwed. I've tried playing 4xASRM6 and a couple of backup lasers, and been insanely frustrated by mechs simply shrugging off the completely non-pinpoint damage my tonnage/cbill investment should be getting me. You can core out an atlas standing still with 4xSRM6 from behind. Unfortunately, that only works in the training grounds or at extremely low ELO levels where the Atlas is mentally challenged/afk.

SRMs are currently spreading drunkenly all over enemy mechs which, when combined with low damage, makes them ridiculously ineffective at anything other than face-hugging range when fighting competent opponents. IE: not PGI employees joining a game for a lark with their low ELO ratings.

[Arrogusss]

Migwelder, on 05 July 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

5 damage is'nt the problem, it's the instant hit on one point of the enemy mech for high damage in a split second which is the problem. Where did anyone say that 35 damage from ppc's and gauss was fine where as AC40's were overpowered? No one said that. They're both a symptom of high damage pinpoint burst alpha's being the strongest condemning other weapons to the rubbish bin as you have to hang around that much longer to get a result.

There was no statement stating that 35 damage from ppc's and gauss was fine. There also was no statement saying it was not fine until now.
So I guess they would have to remove all pinpoint damage weapons then to make SRM worthy?
9 medium lasers for a whole 9 tons of weight. Shot at standing still mech in rear center torso. Pinpoint or non pinpoint??
Overpowered or working as intended??
It's all relative. Some people enjoy BIG GUNS in real life too. 50 caliber,.45,.308 etc... VS .380, 9mm, .223
Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
If the real issue is the pinpoint thing... it's not all that hard to pinpoint any variety OR NUMBER of AC, laser, ppc(obviously) on one section of a mech.

[Training Instructor]

Arrogusss, on 05 July 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

There was no statement stating that 35 damage from ppc's and gauss was fine. There also was no statement saying it was not fine until now.
So I guess they would have to remove all pinpoint damage weapons then to make SRM worthy?
9 medium lasers for a whole 9 tons of weight. Shot at standing still mech in rear center torso. Pinpoint or non pinpoint??
Overpowered or working as intended??
It's all relative. Some people enjoy BIG GUNS in real life too. 50 caliber,.45,.308 etc... VS .380, 9mm, .223
Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
If the real issue is the pinpoint thing... it's not all that hard to pinpoint any variety OR NUMBER of AC, laser, ppc(obviously) on one section of a mech.

Uhm, the firing mech and the mech being fired upon have to be almost standing still for that to happen, given the Hbacks weapon dispersion. The BJ-1X is actually way more dangerous with 8 medium lasers than the 9 med las hback is.

Actually, it's not that easy to pinpoint weapons when firing on fast-moving mechs, but it's incredibly easy to pinpoint them on assaults, heavies, and the hugely oversized mediums that are silly enough to mount something below ludicrous speed engines.

[Tor6]

When a 65 ton heavy mech with full armor is considered a glass cannon you know you have a problem.

[Training Instructor]

Tor6, on 05 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

When a 65 ton heavy mech with full armor is considered a glass cannon you know you have a problem.

And he gets to the heart of the current meta issues.

A mech running half armor and an xl engine so it can boat some insane weapon loadout should be a glass cannon, like the rare 2xGauss 2xPPC K2 Catapults during closed and early open beta. Any mech with full torso armor shouldn't be a glass cannon at all.