12 replies to this topic

[TurboChickenMan]

I have not played this game yet. In fact, the only BattleTech/MechWarrior game that I've played is MechAssault on the original Xbox, which is arcade rather than simulation. However, I loved that game, and have always hoped for a bigger and more complex version of it (it was out of my price range at the time, but Steel Battalion looked like a big step towards what I wanted).

So, how can I contribute? Well, the reason I've yet to play MWO is because I don't want my first experience tainted by a still highly in-progress product. I've been following progress via the forums since closed beta, especially the gameplay balance.

Why a focus on balance? Well, that's why I'm here now. Recent news appears to indicate that the gameplay balance is at a turning point. Either it gets fixed right away, or the game's future could be toast.

You see, for an online multiplayer game, support from the hardcore players is the key to long-term success. Not only do they play the longest, but when they like the game, it's a sign of a high-quality product, worth the time of the average gamer. They both directly and indirectly keep the buzz going.

Another "deep" game that I play is one of my favorites, Worms Armageddon. It was released in 1999, and to this day has an active online community.

How did it manage this? Gameplay. It's one of the most balanced games I've ever played. Only at the absolute highest levels does it start to get narrow, and thanks to a perfect learning curve, there's only about ten players up there.

There are over 70 weapons and utilities, each one with a unique effect on the game. They all serve a purpose under the right conditions, which you WILL see after a reasonable amount of time. Also, except for a few super weapons, which are optional and only there for fun, none are so overpowered that the game revolves around them. Each one has an obvious drawback, like tricky controls, wind direction, fuse length, bounce pattern, etc.

AFAIK, the weapons have remained the same since launch, never patched. The controls, which include 4 different jump types (again, all useful at different times), also seem to never have been changed. Now, I realize that a giant robot FPS has a lot more going on development-wise than a 2D turn-based strategy game, but WA shows that it is at least POSSIBLE to hit the nail on the head, and not a pipe dream.

Thanks to the amazing gameplay, a player came forward when the developers decided to stop updating the game, and convinced them to give him the source code so he could continue the updates, which have kept the game alive, leading up to a recent Steam re-release and a chance to expand the playerbase. If that isn't a FANTASTIC endorsement for getting balance right, I don't know what is.

The big point I'm trying to make is that you can jazz up the graphics all you want, add a bunch of bells and whistles, and focus on marketable features for quick cash, but if the game is only enjoyed by casual gamers, it won't last long. And given how much I want to see this game work out, I hope that I've made the point successfully.

[Donnie Silveray]

Not to be disrespectful in any manner as I do find your post most interesting (I never knew WA was so good) I have soooort of one question.

What was Worms Armageddon like in beta?

Small off example, I recall the recent Starcraft 2 expansion nixed a unit that was once lauded as the signature Terran Mechanized unit. It was quickly kicked to the curb and shoved into a garbage can and now Terrans are back to biological mostly during the Beta.

Point being is that was Blizzard who are rather insane about getting stuff polished to a mirror finish, doing years worth of balance testing and likely having the best design teams in all of the game industry. Or at least the highest paid, and they had made big stumbles in beta as well.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 05 July 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Donnie Silveray, on 05 July 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Not to be disrespectful in any manner as I do find your post most interesting (I never knew WA was so good) I have soooort of one question.

What was Worms Armageddon like in beta?

Small off example, I recall the recent Starcraft 2 expansion nixed a unit that was once lauded as the signature Terran Mechanized unit. It was quickly kicked to the curb and shoved into a garbage can and now Terrans are back to biological mostly during the Beta.

Roaches were OP as **** in Starcraft II's beta. It took them less than a month to fix.

Yes Blizz is bigger than PGI. But it doesnt take 3+ months to come up with some balance changes for PPCs and SRMs. It just doesnt. They need to be updating the game every 2 weeks, **** this once a month ******** theyve been doing since open beta. NOTHING CHANGES. And frankly I'm starting to get really ******* sick of it.

[Donnie Silveray]

My only defense for their rather pitiful pace at balancing is that there is a lot of subwork needing to be covered to be able to implement proper balance changes without having to go back and change everything again. A while back I thought it was the Netcode was why they rarely touched balancing, but now that netcode is past I do wonder what is going on NOW that is slowing them down? As Paul mentioned a few days ago, he requested several subsystems be in place and that miiiight be a sign that faster iteration is coming. I can't say for certain as, obviously, their credibility is rather frustrating right now. But still, if I had to run balancing I'd rather do it after I can be sure that there won't be a rework down the road to fix what I screwed up. An example being the SRM bugs that shafted them. I wouldn't dare touch SRMs right now unless I am sure that the necessary functionality is working so that I don't have to go and rework them.... again.

I'm holding my breath for the second July patch to see what they have under their sleeves. If they even show it then.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 05 July 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

HOLY HAND GRENADE

[DuSucre]

Donnie Silveray, on 05 July 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

A while back I thought it was the Netcode was why they rarely touched balancing, but now that netcode is past I do wonder what is going on NOW that is slowing them down?

Netcode is NOT past.
Not as bad as it once was... But It's still bad and still need A LOT of work.
Lagshielded Ravens and JJ-lagshielded Spider/Jenners are still an issue. At least for us from Europe, and certainly for Asians and Australians...

Edited by DuSucre, 05 July 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[Donnie Silveray]

DuSucre, on 05 July 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Netcode is NOT past.
Not as bad as it once was... But It's still bad and still need A LOT of work.
Lagshielded Ravens and JJ-lagshielded Spider/Jenners are still an issue. At least for us from Europe, and certainly for Asians and Australians...

Heh, well I can't really say since I'm in the US. Ravens and Jenners aren't terribly hard for me to hit. Or at least hit and recieve a good enough indication that I HAVE hit them. It is often a game for me to see if I can hit a fast moving Jenner or Spider with my YLW's AC20, of which I tend to do quite often... In that respect I can only hope that you recieve regional servers soon. The game is definitely not meant to be played on high ping.

[TurboChickenMan]

Donnie Silveray, on 05 July 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

What was Worms Armageddon like in beta?

No idea. Try tracking down the game's director, Martyn Brown, and asking him.

Kaspirikay, on 05 July 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

HOLY HAND GRENADE

In the default (and most balanced) setup known as Intermediate, you only get one per round, and can't use it until several turns have passed, allowing you to position your worms so as to reduce the effectiveness of it. It also has high bounce and won't detonate until it stops moving, making it weak in long-distance high-precision situations.

Also, at the most advanced levels, the dual Mad Cows (one of several special weapons you can choose to have instead of the HHG) is actually more powerful. Requiring expert positioning and release technique, it's like having two moving Dynamites! (The most powerful standard explosive.)

[PEEFsmash]

Russ Bullock today on IGPs stream when I asked if he would reach out to the competitive community for balance help he said: "We will at launch, but we don't have the time right now."

I think that is a bad, bad, move.

[XX Sulla XX]

Just download and play the game. Its not perfect but getting better. And it is changing all the time. Thing is I had fun when I started. And had fun as the game has changed. And I am having fun now. And I am sure enough I will have fun in the future I just paid the money for the project phoenix overload package.

[Stoicblitzer]

PEEFsmash, on 05 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Russ Bullock today on IGPs stream when I asked if he would reach out to the competitive community for balance help he said: "We will at launch, but we don't have the time right now."

I think that is a bad, bad, move.

Their game is already ranked #19 on PC Gamer's best shooters of all-time.
http://mwomercs.com/...rs-of-all-time/



sell more phoenix packages.

[kesuga7]

so if the Cuban military leader isn't on pgi's side and neither is bush then who is!
@stoic

[blinkin]

PEEFsmash, on 05 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Russ Bullock today on IGPs stream when I asked if he would reach out to the competitive community for balance help he said: "We will at launch, but we don't have the time right now."

I think that is a bad, bad, move.

does anyone pay any attention to how many gameplay changes come directly from the forums?

• jump jet shake
  
• night vision and thermal reworks (i didn't agree, but many people complained the old versions were broken)
  
• fixing the catapult K2 so that you could see when it has gauss rifles mounted
  
• gauss rifle HP is where it is now because of balance complaints
  
• dozens of level changes to caustic, frozen, forest colony, and a crap load for river city
  
• several changes to jump jet power
  
• the never ending battle with flamers and machine guns
  
• EVERY flavor of missile in the game seems to be adjusted every couple months
  
• AC2 <-anyone who played closed beta knows what i am talking about there
  
• the current PPC/ERPPC mess is the direct result of people complaining that PPC were useless endlessly
  
• head hit boxes on pretty much every mech before the black jack

you people are like an obnoxious six year old in a store complaining that your parents don't ever buy you anything because they said "not right now" when you demanded some crappy plastic toy off the shelf.

at this point i would be sad but i would completely understand if they just shut down the forums and told us all to **** off.

Edited by blinkin, 05 July 2013 - 09:56 PM.