36 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

This is a quick poll, but I think it could be a useful one. How many of you feel the Large Laser is the perfect "baseline" weapon?

In otherwords, it's usefulness on a per ton, per crit scale is pretty much ideal. In a game that had only large lasers, damage would fall off at the rate you'd picture the game pace going at.

Basically, this comes down to "which weapon should be the gold standard that the other weapons are balanced around?" I think the Large Laser is easily on that target, personally, as it delivers reasonable damage while taking a decent amount of skill to use. It's really what other guns should be compared against going forward.

If not the Large Laser, what other weapon do you think is "perfect" (perhaps not in the current meta, but if the meta were balanced around said gun)?

--

UPDATE: The Large Laser was doing well in the polls as a good baseline. This of course means PGI butchered it, and the coming heat restriction will begin overheating 'mechs at 2 large lasers fired.

New poll question added.

R.I.P. Large Laser, one of the last useful non-PPC weapons. *salute*

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 July 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Large lasers are pretty much perfect also medium laser are also pretty perfect as well. Those two weapons don't need to be touched at all.

Edited by SirSmokes, 06 July 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

I think the baseline is around the MLs, the LL is just balanced right around with them.

[Sephlock]

I agree, although I feel nostalgic for the older, longer duration beam- it felt more "MechWarrior".

[jozkhan]

I have a lot of love for the LL (and the ML for that matter)

[Ningyo]

Have to agree, though I think another weapon the AC/5 maybe is a good baseline for ballistics it seems about the same power level as Large laser from what I have seen.

Medium laser is a fairly good baseline for the ultra light weapons to be based off as well.

[SubRyan]

Medium Laser is the baseline weapon system

[General Taskeen]

The SL used to be alright as well.

To me, I think the only weapons that currently make sense as far as being truly balanced are all the lasers, except the pulse lasers.

[Victor Morson]

General Taskeen, on 06 July 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

The SL used to be alright as well.

To me, I think the only weapons that currently make sense as far as being truly balanced are all the lasers, except the pulse lasers.

And ER Lasers.

All the regular lasers though, I agree.

[Elizander]

I'll agree that the LL is a good baseline. If you can quantify its statistics and make sure other weapons don't deviate too far from it things might turn out okay, but it is always hard to make compromises between damage over time and pinpoint burst damage.

ER Large Lasers could use more range since they do not triple like projectile weapons in range. Still too far from the regular large laser in terms of power.

Edited by Elizander, 06 July 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Ralgas]

Rather than taking a "weapon" as a baseline i'd rather see the base figures.
ie
i'd like to see lasers/ppc's as a whole dropped to 2dps (just under a Llas incidentally, i still believe when you strap 3 or more together as is they are too strong) group mg's in here too, as they don't suffer the high weight penalty ballistics do

Ballistics @ 4dps excepting gauss (lower as it is now), uac5, and lbx due to their special bonuses and drawbacks

heat and a few range tweaks (looking at you ac/10!!) or heat cap drops to encourage more diversity between said weps. As is both the highest fronted dmg weps in the game also have the highest dps in their respective classes, bring them all into alignment would go a ways towards bringing "roles" back rather that strap as many of the best gun in possible.......

Edited by Ralgas, 06 July 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Other.

Because the LLAS has too long a burn duration. Burn durations for lasers is something new they added in MWO. I like it, I think it's a good idea, but.... the Large Laser's usefulness is dwarfed by Medium Lasers.

Reason is Medium Lasers have the perfect Burn Duration for their range. AND, they do 5 damage per ton, so 2 MLAS out-DPS a weapon that weighs 250% more.

Logically, if an Engineer had designed MWO's Lasers, they would have set the burn duration LOWER the greater the Laser's rated Range and that would be why LLAS are so heavy. They are 5 tons to accommadate a faster burn duration, needed at longer ranges, which is also why they are hotter.

So, in order to use the Large Laser as a baseline it's burn duration needs to drop to 0.5 seconds. ER Large would be 0.35 seconds duration.

And I am speaking of in-game balancing, not mathmatical hypothosis.

Edited by Lightfoot, 06 July 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Lightfoot, on 06 July 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Other.

Because the LLAS has too long a burn duration. Burn durations for lasers is something new they added in MWO. I like it, I think it's a good idea, but.... the Large Laser's usefulness is dwarfed by Medium Lasers.

Reason is Medium Lasers have the perfect Burn Duration for their range. AND, they do 5 damage per ton, so 2 MLAS out-DPS a weapon that weighs 250% more.

Logically, if an Engineer had designed MWO's Lasers, they would have set the burn duration LOWER the greater the Laser's rated Range and that would be why LLAS are so heavy. They are 5 tons to accommadate a faster burn duration, needed at longer ranges, which is also why they are hotter.

So, in order to use the Large Laser as a baseline it's burn duration needs to drop to 0.5 seconds. ER Large would be 0.35 seconds duration.

And I am speaking of in-game balancing, not mathmatical hypothosis.

Wrong. The Large Laser weighs 5 tons because it does +60% more damage (TT value, 80% MW:O value) but also has 2x the range. You say that for 2 tons you can do more damage then a large laser for 3 less tons but the same amount of crits. This is true but you do exactly 0 damage with those 2 Md Lasers at 451m. And, even within 270m, you're doing an additional 1 point of damage, over the course of the beam, for 1 added point of heat with a cool down gain of 0.25s which just makes your heat gain that much harder to manage in the long run. The Lrg Laser dwarfs the Md Laser in every statistical aspect.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 06 July 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Wrong. The Large Laser weighs 5 tons because it does +60% more damage (TT value, 80% MW:O value) but also has 2x the range. You say that for 2 tons you can do more damage then a large laser for 3 less tons but the same amount of crits. This is true but you do exactly 0 damage with those 2 Md Lasers at 541m. And, even within 270m, you're doing an additional 1 point of damage, over the course of the beam, for 1 added point of heat with a cool down gain of 0.25s which just makes your heat gain that much harder to manage in the long run. The Lrg Laser dwarfs the Md Laser in every statistical aspect.

Fixed the # in bold.

[DaZur]

If you were to base the premise that the most used "workhorse" weapon because it fills that "jack of all" mantra... it would definitely be the Medium Laser...

[DeathlyEyes]

Problem with lasers is the duration is too long. I will always use PPCs when possible because all the damage is done in a short enough time that I can fire then shield my torso by turning away.

[Deathlike]

h4t3r4d3, on 06 July 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Problem with lasers is the duration is too long. I will always use PPCs when possible because all the damage is done in a short enough time that I can fire then shield my torso by turning away.

The duration is fine. The thing about med lasers in general is that they are wholly sustainable long term than PPCs. PPCs are great for practically everything, but there are some instances where it only takes an aggressive light mech to essentially "bug you" to death. Mediums are always great for backup, and are strangely a lot more effective when you chain fire them for the purposes of keeping weapons effective while you're cooling down AND being harassed.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 July 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

I agree that LL is the baseline. Some would argue ML is the baseline - which I would have agreed if heat output was reduced to between 3-3.5.

[General Taskeen]

Lightfoot, on 06 July 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Because the LLAS has too long a burn duration. Burn durations for lasers is something new they added in MWO.

Just commenting on this specifically, with a little history. The 'damage per tick' or 'burn duration' type laser is derived from MW:LL and put into concept within MWO. The '3 pulse/3 tick' pulse laser (with a cool down) is also derived from MW:LL, although pulse lasers fire nearly twice as fast as normal lasers in that game, but not in MWO.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 July 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[Deathlike]

Med Lasers have always been the baseline for everything... because it does a lot for its tonnage and pretty much almost any mech is viable for them in many situations.

Large Lasers... not so much... although the meta is influencing its usage, it's not the bread and butter that all mechs use. Even the dual AC20 Jager tends to carry a pair of meds.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 July 2013 - 10:58 PM.