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A Case Study In The Meta


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#21 Mycrus

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostPeter2000, on 06 July 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

No, this is what the competitive scene has been saying the whole time. The meta is one-dimensional and broken. We want it fixed as much as everyone else, if not more. We run it because, frankly, it is more fun to blow people to hell with PPCs than it is to feel powerless while they do the same to you (of course, both being far less fun than proper balance).


View PostMalora Sidewinder, on 06 July 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

quitting? actually dude a lot of the competitive players are doing exactly that. We in HHoD had to dismantle our competitive team because of how many people had moved on, and we're not nearly alone. Kaos, one of the better teams out there, no longer plays because they didn't enjoy the game anymore. not a single competitive team (besides clan widowmaker, except they're not competitive, nor are they any good, so for this discussion their opinion has zero consequence or value) that is overall "happy" with the current state of the game.


what competitive scene? aren't you "dismantled"?

#22 Tekadept

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:44 AM

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#23 Thundercles

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 06 July 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:


Aw... I abuse this to no end and it's glorious how most people can't really shoot mechs that are in the air (hangtime is still rather high).



I can't speak for anyone else, but about 80% of the time when I shoot someone that is in midair (like, point blank, highlander takes up my entire view, can't possibly miss, even...) damage just doesn't register. I'll get the red crosshairs, and sometimes even the enemy paperdoll will flash, but little to no damage sticks. Even with lasers. I assumed that was why people did it, to cheese hit registration. It surely isn't because they're harder to hit.

#24 Deathlike

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:08 AM

View PostThundercles, on 07 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:


I can't speak for anyone else, but about 80% of the time when I shoot someone that is in midair (like, point blank, highlander takes up my entire view, can't possibly miss, even...) damage just doesn't register. I'll get the red crosshairs, and sometimes even the enemy paperdoll will flash, but little to no damage sticks. Even with lasers. I assumed that was why people did it, to cheese hit registration. It surely isn't because they're harder to hit.


Hitreg has certainly been an issue across the board. It frustrates me every patch that it isn't getting that much better and PGI has been talking about the upcoming 12v12 deployment...

Edited by Deathlike, 07 July 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#25 Nasty McBadman

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:21 AM

I posted an idea down in the "suggestions" area but I don't know if that gets read :unsure: . I just want to know if anyone in this thread thinks this could help the meta and future of MWO. The weapon systems on a mech need power to function, much like heat limitation, space limitation, tonnage limitation, I suggest power limitation. (apologies if others have already suggested this).
Each weapon type requires dedicated power to make it function. An AC20 may need 20 kilowatts in the ballistic power subsystem to power the feed mechanism and the actuators to aim it, a PPC may need 10 kilowatts in the energy weapon power subsystem to charge and fire. Just because a mech can fit the weapon does not mean it has the power required to use the weapon. This could make for a good balancing method. The total power a mech is capable of generating across its subsystems could be like 10% over the stock configuration for each variant. This would still allow unique builds and creativity but it would cut down on things like the hexaPPC stalker. Any thoughts?

#26 TheFlyingScotsman

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:29 AM

I'm not going to lie, this is the reason I havn't touched my HM, my DD-C, my catapults, my Jager-A (1xGauss/4xssrm2/1xmpl/tag, **** ac40.) or my TBT-7M. Due to how accurate convergence (and locking missiles) are, all the damage gets dealt to a single point without disbenefit, making weapons that are stackable or easier to aim (Like SSRMs/LRMs/AC20's with their huge rounds) vastly superior to balanced builds.

It's as simple as where the damage goes, because stacked ballistics or locking missiles will always hit more often and more accurately than lasers. Since they never fail to at least damage CT, streaks will never not be superior to SRMs until they are capable of missing. Direct-damage attacks will never not be superior to lasers until they suffer the same lack of pinpoint convergence. (Lasers technically have it, but still sweep in most ocassions.)

All weapons need to fire with some slight locked-position spread. Namely, with an AC40 as an example, the rounds can still be accurate, but they should align to above and to the right and left of the crosshair, not dead center. This still lets the weapon be accurate and be capable of spamming at larger opponents, but will force cautious, single fire if the user wants to hit the same location. This would eliminate the overeffectiveness of stacked weapons, but still fully allow skill to be a factor in quick kills.

Streaks need to fire straight forward from their mounted reticule location and then bank with far less wide an angle, forcing players to aim them at the enemy if they want the automatic hit, but causing them to miss if the target is an unviable one. This omni-directional free-hit nonsense cannot be considered balanced in any definition of the word.

#27 Lostdragon

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostInhibition, on 06 July 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

"study"? hah...what little weight your "evidence" has for the argument.
But I do admit your post does have a rhetorical effect in the anecdotal sense.
The meta is fine. But of course brawling weapons should be buffed.


So you think the meta is fine but brawling is broken? Mind blown.

#28 Lostdragon

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostThundercles, on 07 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:


I can't speak for anyone else, but about 80% of the time when I shoot someone that is in midair (like, point blank, highlander takes up my entire view, can't possibly miss, even...) damage just doesn't register. I'll get the red crosshairs, and sometimes even the enemy paperdoll will flash, but little to no damage sticks. Even with lasers. I assumed that was why people did it, to cheese hit registration. It surely isn't because they're harder to hit.


I still see this but it is not as bad as it used to be. I have blasted several mechs out of the air recently, but sometimes there are are issues with hitting mechs that are using JJs. I have noticed that it seems to be easy to hit them when they are falling but much more difficult while the JJs are actually engaged.

View PostNasty McBadman, on 07 July 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

I posted an idea down in the "suggestions" area but I don't know if that gets read :unsure: . I just want to know if anyone in this thread thinks this could help the meta and future of MWO. The weapon systems on a mech need power to function, much like heat limitation, space limitation, tonnage limitation, I suggest power limitation. (apologies if others have already suggested this).
Each weapon type requires dedicated power to make it function. An AC20 may need 20 kilowatts in the ballistic power subsystem to power the feed mechanism and the actuators to aim it, a PPC may need 10 kilowatts in the energy weapon power subsystem to charge and fire. Just because a mech can fit the weapon does not mean it has the power required to use the weapon. This could make for a good balancing method. The total power a mech is capable of generating across its subsystems could be like 10% over the stock configuration for each variant. This would still allow unique builds and creativity but it would cut down on things like the hexaPPC stalker. Any thoughts?


There have been a lot of proposals similar to your idea. Homeless Bill posted a very detailed idea and the thread had a lot of discussion. Personally, I am against adding a resource mechanic. I think it overly complicates an already complicated game. There are already two systems in the game that can deal with this: heat and convergence. Well, convergence is basically turned off, but the system already exists.

In my opinion the best solution is to set a static heat cap that does not change. Balance (increase, probably) heat dissipation around this. That limits the firing of high heat weapons. Add in a heat scale with penalties to movement, convergence, etc. and you really encourage people to treat heat like a resource instead of ignoring it as happens.

The second part, convergence, addresses builds that do not use high heat weapons. I would set it up so that whenever you fire two or more weapons that each do 10 or more damage you get a penalty to convergence and that penalty gets stiffer with each big gun you fire but it would not impact any lasers. Convergence could also be impacted by movement and heat. This would encourage people to use chainfire and would reward those who can aim more consistently. DPS matters again and DPS builds become much more viable.

Edited by Lostdragon, 07 July 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#29 InRev

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostInhibition, on 06 July 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

The meta is fine. But of course brawling weapons should be buffed.


Poe's Law, calling it.





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