276 replies to this topic

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 22 November 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

haters gonna hate, and iam gunna rant the reason clan have the better tech iis because it adds diversity, and that diversity gives the clan there identiy take away there advantage and your left with the inner sppere with a diffrent phiosophy to the way of life... which would be disregarded in a borad and video game, conclusion, clan techs "op" for a reason, stop whineing and deal with it

sooooo you think that nice toys = identity? the clans are defined by the nice tech they have? well there we have it ladies and gentlemen; why anyone actually plays clan. I'd like to believe that most clan players play for the story, but we'd only really know if the clan weapons DID get taken away(not likely)

my thing about clan tech is this: I'm all for an edge in combat, but the way these mechs are built - especially during the initial invasion, they are just too. damned. good.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 22 November 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

p.s as for omni mechs no, no there not op, they have a great disadvatnage, there stuck with default armour engien and internal structure stats, where as a battlemech can upgrade all... only diffrence is Omni can accept ALL weapons hence the word "Omni" where as a battlemech has hardfixed points...again not OP


p.p.s btw fero fibours and endo steel takes up criticla slots, giving omni mechs anothe disadvantage of less space to mount weapons...

I lol'ed!

let's break this one down:
Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous: 14 crits
Clan Ferro Fibrous: 7 crits

Inner Sphere Endo Steel: 14 crits
Clan Endo Steel: 7 crits

Inner Sphere Double Heat Sink: 3 crits
Clan Double Heat Sink: 2 crits

Inner Sphere XL Engine: 6 crits (3 in each torso, standard 6 in center)
Clan XL Engine: 4 crits (3 in each torso, standard 6 in center)

Inner Sphere ER Large Laser: 2 crits
Clan Large Laser: 1 crit

the list goes on; I'm sorry, how do omnimechs have a space disadvantage?

if anything; the Inner Sphere stuff starts to look more balanced. As we can see, the IS mech can have nice toys, but it is severely
hampered by internal space, thus you must economize your LVL2 loadouts to fit a role. Clan tech just let's you have anything you want

I'm all for clan tech and the clans in the game; ~17yrs after their introduction they're clearly here to stay, but I implore PGI to do some simple tweaks to make them have a real edge not game busting edge.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 23 November 2011 - 07:17 AM.

[Seeificare]

You people act like it would be the end of the world even if they did. Remember the weapons on mechs are only good if the person knows how to use them and hit with them. If they are going table top you might have a hard time firing those weapons if your sp are not high enough everyone knows you fall down. Just like if you got hit in the head and survived you fall down cause most mechwarriors get knocked out from any weapon except machinegun hitting them in the head.
A another interesting point would be certain mechs and weapons are designed for each fraction. For example if you wanted a Victor your never gonna find them in Kruita. So the question is if they are going table top and book from back in the day. You would have to create the biggest universe ever made in gaming history cause you would need every planet and a map for it and the research and building it has. Such as mech factory's,space defense. These are important aspects of mechwarrior/battletech. Your less likely to attack something you can't get to the planets surface if it had a shipyard to produce warships and drop ships.
Aka yes as in when the IS tryed to sneak attack Ghost bears and landed into a planet the could produce warships it didn't go so well when the Ghost bears slaughtered them. So these are important aspects and it has to have a price tag mechs are not free and they are never easy to get black market or through hard work either unless you got lucky enough to actually find a clan cashe with some older clan tech in it.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

my point is, in a video game or bord game the things that define the clan, such as there reules of engagement or philosophy on life will just be tossed out the window, and that really only leaves there tech to define them (in a video game), i really dont care about all these whiners saying its "OP" its not, its there for diversity. take it away what are we left with? and invadeing I.S army with diffrent rules of engagment which again, no one will give a crap about in game. if people dont like there advantage then tough learn to play and deal with it, its there for a reason, no ones going to want the same recylced tech with a diffrance of its saying "Clan" at the side. as for omnimech space disadvatnage, since a battlemech can upgrade/downgrade engine, structure, armour type and values, they could change it to standard and gain more space theres the disadvantage, seeing how most i.s mechs are battlemechs. not to mention battlemechs can install w.e electronic equpiment, omnimechs are stuck with there default

p.s i would play clan for there story, but i wont bother if the technology (which makes the diffrence in game play) is equale to i.s i'd might as well stick to the sphereoids seeing how the clan wouldnt bring anything NEW and DIFFRENT to gameplay :\ iam sorry but i really cant see many people actualy playing by clan rules unless its enforced by the game...

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Seeificare, on 23 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Remember the weapons on mechs are only good if the person knows how to use them and hit with them. If they are going table top you might have a hard time firing those weapons if your sp are not high enough everyone knows you fall down.

the problem is, clan tech is incredibly forgiving to players, and teaches them bad habits.
Don't worry about heat; Double Heat Sinks
Don't worry about speed; most clan mechs are 1/3-2/3 faster
Don't worry about gunnery; all clan pilots are 3/4
Don't worry about position; your guns have longer ranges than should be possible (i'm looking at you: Clan Large Pulse Laser)
Don't worry about armor; all clan mechs are packed with Ferro Fiibrous armor giving them more protection per ton.

Seeificare, on 23 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

A another interesting point would be certain mechs and weapons are designed for each fraction. For example if you wanted a Victor your never gonna find them in Kruita.

know your history, Draconis Combine capture the primary factories for Victors during the Fourth Succession War leaving the FedCom unable to make their own and having to import the design.

Seeificare, on 23 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Aka yes as in when the IS tryed to sneak attack Ghost bears and landed into a planet the could produce warships it didn't go so well when the Ghost bears slaughtered them. So these are important aspects and it has to have a price tag mechs are not free and they are never easy to get black market or through hard work either unless you got lucky enough to actually find a clan cashe with some older clan tech in it.

agreed, clan tech should have a wicked high upkeep.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 23 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

my point is, in a video game or bord game the things that define the clan, such as there reules of engagement or philosophy on life will just be tossed out the window, and that really only leaves there tech to define them (in a video game), i really dont care about all these whiners saying its "OP" its not, its there for diversity.

You may not care; but a large segment of gamers in MechWarrior do. Of course, you openly play clan and get the toys; so you’re correct in a way, why should you care?
Also look up Space Marines in warhammer 40k; how does an imbalanced force bring diversity? When all your players flocked to the most powerful faction (because you manufactured it as such) then what’s the point of playing any other group? Why should I have to deal with losing (i.e. playing the Inner Sphere) to be diverse?

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 23 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

take it away what are we left with? and invadeing I.S army with diffrent rules of engagment which again, no one will give a crap about in game. if people dont like there advantage then tough learn to play and deal with it, its there for a reason, no ones going to want the same recylced tech with a diffrance of its saying "Clan" at the side.

But it works both ways, a lot of players don’t care for the I.S. story nuances either which to be frank there’s a lot more of. Telling people to ‘deal with it’ is bad strategy, it turns off new gamers which for Mw we kinda really do need. When the co. making the new game goes; “guy’s its either F2P or oblivion” well I’d really try and expand the player base as much as possible.
Like I keep saying, I believe there should be clan tech, I believe it should have an edge. But the current design philosophy of canon clan mechs is thus: min/max the crap out of every weight class, and throw all equip. into it. Now if IS canon mechs had been built the same way, it wouldn’t be so bad; but they’re not.
All I’m saying is tone down the variants just a little OR tone down the powers of equipment just a little. when an item is added to the game that’s perfect in every way, it’s gonna disrupt balance. Now imagine an entire tech tree of this stuff is added…and this is what you’re seeing.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 23 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

as for omnimech space disadvatnage, since a battlemech can upgrade/downgrade engine, structure, armour type and values, they could change it to standard and gain more space theres the disadvantage, seeing how most i.s mechs are battlemechs. not to mention battlemechs can install w.e electronic equpiment, omnimechs are stuck with there default

This is fallacious argument, why? It does not take into account what those ominmechs get in turns of equipment! you say it limited? Well let’s take a look at the venerable timber Wolf.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Timber_Wolf
go ahead, run down its list of alternate configurations. Point out the one that’s ‘weak.’ Are there variants that aren’t good? Yes. But compare that to say another Lvl2 75 ton mech from the invasion era: Warhammer, Orion, Flashman, Black Knight, Marauder. None of them really come close to dishing out the punishment these Timber Wolf variants can.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 23 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

p.s i would play clan for there story, but i wont bother if the technology (which makes the diffrence in game play) is equale to i.s i'd might as well stick to the sphereoids seeing how the clan wouldnt bring anything NEW and DIFFRENT to gameplay :\ iam sorry but i really cant see many people actualy playing by clan rules unless its enforced by the game...

I don’t think clan tech should be equal, but neither will I admit that the status quo(clan tech) is acceptable for any sort game
So I got one person to admit they play clan for the toys; anyone else going to confess
But seriously, there’s ‘New and Different’ and then there’s ‘Bad Game Design’
Clan tech as it sits now, tilts towards ‘Bad Game Design’

[Name145613]

I don't know why the most of us are afraid of clan tech. I also don't like it because I'm a fan of classic battletech. They (the developers) say that IS will be greater in numbers. That should equal any kind of imbalance. If they implement the proper weapon effects like shaking when hit by a ppc or srm the enemy will have problems to give counter fire. IF the IS lances play as a REAL team e.g. holding the clanners in a constant shaking or sec. weapon effects (e.g. blending), then there should be a good chance to win the fight. I often use this in the mod MWLL. This shall be no PR for this mod but there you can beat the clan mechs with IS mechs. So what I wanted to say is, that the clans can be beaten with the right choice of weapons and tactics regardless of their better tech.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Quote

I don’t think clan tech should be equal, but neither will I admit that the status quo(clan tech) is acceptable for any sort game
So I got one person to admit they play clan for the toys; anyone else going to confess
But seriously, there’s ‘New and Different’ and then there’s ‘Bad Game Design’
Clan tech as it sits now, tilts towards ‘Bad Game Design’

nah iam a spontanious person, and i will use what ever takes my fancy that day + a mechs psyhical appearce has a great impact on me so i'd be more inclined to use the best looking mech lol (might be out gunned but at least i'll be the coolest looking one how vaine of me),probably see me in a flashman more often then a timberwolf. (Flashman was always my fave heavy of all time). again i'd just rather see some diversity IF clan tech is added, personaly, rather not see it dumed down at all.

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 24 November 2011 - 08:55 AM.

[Lagreskul]

I just gotta bump this and say that Clan Tech is coming out soon...

http://mwomercs.com/clans

[Mavek]

OP should be a politician. Here is the condensed version:

It wouldnt be so bad if players that chose to be Clan, also chose to play the 'Clan Way'. Which is to say, they would gimp themselves at every turn. you got an atlas, cool, the clan player would choose a nova, because beating you in a Dire Wolf would not prove anything to the Clan player or improve his status as a warrior.

In the gaming world, pimply, worthless, fatbodies live out their fantasy of being someone worth more than dogpoo that everyone else wipes their feet with, so they choose whatever they can to give them EVERY advantage so that they can win and tbag you as if winning a video game actually means anything to anyone not a worthless, pimply, fatbody.

[Mengsai]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs.

I would have to disagree. Actually it would be VERY easy to have Clan Omnimechs with superior technology just like right now you can have a Jenner vs. an Orion in the same match.

This could be realistically balanced through tonnage limitations or in my opinion.....a direct mech disadvantage for the clans.
i.e. [3 IS Lances (12 Inner Sphere Battlemechs) vs. 2 Clan Stars (10 Omnimechs)]

Based on ELO values, the limits for the Clan Stars could be Light, Medium, Heavy, or Assault STARS to give IS an even playing field.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_(Clan)

8 Atlases + 4 Cataphracts (1080 IS tonnage) can easily kill 2 Heavy Stars of say 2 Daishis + 6 Masakaris + 2 Ryokens. (820 Clan tonnage)

So give IS a 200 ton advantage of say, max 1050 IS tons vs. 850 Clan tons or 12 IS vs. 10 Clan mechs.

Done!
Still fun.

A well coordinated IS team can stomp Clan Pugs regardless of how powerful they are.

I say 12 IS vs. 5 to 10 Clan is the way to go.
Have the Clans bid for 1 Star or 2 Stars per match with a massive C-Bill multiplier for greater odds. i.e. 1 Star (5 Omnimechs) vs. 12 IS mechs would get a 2x C-Bill multiplier for winning. 2 Stars (10 Omnimechs) would get the standard C-Bills as in the following.....

x Clan vs. Inner Sphere 12 Battlemechs
5 Ominmechs = 2x C-Bill Boost
6 Omnimechs = 1.8x C-Bill Boost
7 Omnimechs = 1.6x C-Bill Boost
8 Omnimechs = 1.4x C-Bill Boost
9 Omnimechs = 1.2x C-Bill Boost
10 Omnimechs = Standard C-Bills

[CyclonerM]

Your idea is not bad itself, but the casual players would not play with their clearly inferior IS weapons, it is a psicological matter..

This does not mean that OmniMechs and Clan weapons cannot be balanced

[Cannibal713]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Conclusion

In the end the inclusion of both omnimechs and clan technology will devolve all end game into nothing but omni and clan tech acquisition races. IS mechs with IS tech will not be able to compete at the highest levels of gameplay which will be absolutely devastating for any leagues which spring up around BT roleplay constructs.

Yea, I have to agree with Cavadus. To introduce clan tech with even a modest advantage would wreck the game. Omnimechs would have no advantage when you can change weapons between games on any mech (unless you do away with hardpoint restrictions for them). Its taken all the time from the start of closed beta until recently to get the weapons to a good & balaced state. I shutter to think what true to tabletop clan tech would do to that balance.

When it was introduced to Battletech tabletop, I loved the clan invasion; tech difference and all. But it doesnt lend itself to this game well. This game can be true to the old Battletech/Mechwarrior cannon and universe without the game mechanics being the same. To try to make MWO EXACTLY the same as Battletech wont work.

[Mengsai]

CyclonerM, on 17 December 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

Your idea is not bad itself, but the casual players would not play with their clearly inferior IS weapons, it is a psicological matter..

This does not mean that OmniMechs and Clan weapons cannot be balanced

That would be true...casual players would gravitate away from the inferior IS weapons. BUT remember when community warfare begins, there will be SPACE occupation and the planets are already controlled by the Inner Sphere giving Resource Bonuses to all those that are part of the faction that controls particular planets. So the Inner Sphere will clearly have the mech total numbers advantages, thus my 12 IS Battlemechs example for the IS side.

Now the Clans will certainly begin with fewer planets as they invade. So even if their weapons are superior, if they get a -2 Mech disadvantage as in my idea, that would even the game as long as armor values are equal. The 2 mech advantage for the IS side would offset any weapons advantage imho. i.e. Just think of a swarm of Jenners doing some massive damage.

I do more damage than assaults in Jenners and Shadowhawks in many of my games as the game currently is. 12/2013 =)

[CyclonerM]

Mengsai, on 22 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

That would be true...casual players would gravitate away from the inferior IS weapons. BUT remember when community warfare begins, there will be SPACE occupation and the planets are already controlled by the Inner Sphere giving Resource Bonuses to all those that are part of the faction that controls particular planets. So the Inner Sphere will clearly have the mech total numbers advantages, thus my 12 IS Battlemechs example for the IS side.

Now the Clans will certainly begin with fewer planets as they invade. So even if their weapons are superior, if they get a -2 Mech disadvantage as in my idea, that would even the game as long as armor values are equal. The 2 mech advantage for the IS side would offset any weapons advantage imho. i.e. Just think of a swarm of Jenners doing some massive damage.

I always said that 10 vs 12 is a must, but the psicological power of "POWA!" weapons sadly is still there.

[Rowanas]

I'm looking forward to the Introduction of the WoBlies, and a whole new round of bitching.

It's a shame that clans are going to be nerfed into unimportance, because the whole "Invasion of the Inner Sphere" just isn't going to happen. On the bright side, at least the cost to purchase clan tech won't be as expensive as they are in canon, because they're going to be balanced. If Clanners are getting nerfed, then so are the cbill costs, so everyone can have a Clan mech!

[Mengsai]

CyclonerM, on 22 December 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I always said that 10 vs 12 is a must, but the psicological power of "POWA!" weapons sadly is still there.

Yeah it would be still there.

That's why it would be important to have planet control and not everyone can be "Clan" in community warfare since more IS planets exist on the universe map. Let's see how they do the Clan rules "in-game" since they've decided not for overpowering weapons and still 12 vs. 12, which in my opinion is NOT the best way to go.

[T elos]

Rowanas, on 22 December 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I'm looking forward to the Introduction of the WoBlies, and a whole new round of bitching.

It's a shame that clans are going to be nerfed into unimportance, because the whole "Invasion of the Inner Sphere" just isn't going to happen. On the bright side, at least the cost to purchase clan tech won't be as expensive as they are in canon, because they're going to be balanced. If Clanners are getting nerfed, then so are the cbill costs, so everyone can have a Clan mech!

I don't know about that...It made it seem like they're going to make you suffer more with c-bills trying to customize the things (which they should) then IS mechs. As far as I'm concerned though, with that community warfare thing it should be quite a game to know what's going to go on and seems liek it'll be even unless All the casual players are going to aim for the best. (clan mechs are superior but i'm imagining it won't be easier for you to obtain innersphere tech) or go innersphere (Simpler and you'll have a lot of buddies in all those houses at the start with those bonuses that are unique with that house faction)
It'll be even, even with those weapons if everybody's "psychological" mindset is based around community warfare (pray and hope they won't screw up that meta-game)