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Why This Game Can Never Have Clan Tech or Omnimechs


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#1 Gaius Cavadus

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM

It seems like a lot of the purists around here have very little knowledge about how game balance works. Sometimes I wonder if they've ever played a video game outside of the franchise. Most of the time I conclude that they haven't.

MWO is a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Bunches of players being thrown through a match making process and then being outputted into a match.

It's also faction on faction which means it's very important that there is solid faction balance. There is something we've talked about a lot which is a guaranteed way to destroy faction balance:

Clan Tech

The simple fact of the matter is that this game can't include traditional clan technology. Ever.

Why, you ask? Because one faction, or set of factions in this case, can't be given such a devastating advantage over their opponents. In traditional MMOs the developers generally steer away from "alpha" classes. "Alpha" classes are a class which was specifically chosen and designed to be superior to everything else. This is what the clans are to BattleTech. They are the "alpha" class.

The weapons are better, the mechs are better, the equipment is better.

MMOs steer clear of "alpha" classes because they are a player funnel. People don't like being disadvantaged especially in competitive PvP. When the "alpha" class comes around they'll get their *** handed to them and then conclude that they must join them or be forced to be a lower tier of player class.

Entire MMOs have been completely ruined by "alpha" classes (I'm talking Star Wars Galaxies here). And the end result is that after a few years everyone and their mother has achieved their alpha class and things are made even worse for those who chose to play the game their way.

Except in MWO there won't be anything to unlock or earn, just a faction selection screen at pilot creation.

The average player is going to join MWO, pick whatever faction, and start playing. Perhaps they lucked out and went clan right away. Maybe they foolishly chose IS.

Eventually they're going to learn the advantages of being clan and at that moment they'll make the decision to either jump ship and change to a clan faction (even if it means starting a new character) or quit the game altogether.

There's no incentive to arbitrarily gimping one's self especially when the only real reason this imbalance exists at all is to sate a few purists' egos and stay true to some inane fluff lore which didn't even make sense at the time it was written.

I remember when the clans were introduced to TT. Players were beyond miffed as the clan tech itself was terribly imbalanced (particularly the introduction of double heat sinks). It was bad for gameplay then and it'll be bad for gameplay now.

Anyways, this advantage will obviously create a huge faction imbalance. Players will want the strongest and the best and I can assure you all that they absolutely will not give a **** about any difference between the two faction sets in the lore and they sure as well won't be playing the game by the absurd clan rules (I always LOL super hard when purists bring that up as a means to balance the two faction sets, Yeah, because some GM is going to watch every match and delete your clan mech if you don't play by clan rules, right? LOL).

MWO simply can't have advantages and disadvantages on this scale.

And let's not forget that some of the clan tech didn't even take balance into account. For instance, clan LRMs. Their weight was derived from the Mad Cat's stock loadout as that was designed before the TT weights were final. This meant that the LRM weights came from making some fluff loadout for a piece of artwork feasible rather than accounting for real balance.

It's time to fix terrible mistakes like that.

The final problem with clan tech is that since it obsolesces all IS tech in the game the tech advancement for IS players becomes nothing but a race to acquisition as much clan tech as quickly as possible (assuming clan tech can be mounted on IS mechs). This reduces every single IS mech in the game to being nothing but a clan tech refit.

The technological advantage of clan technology is simply far too great to ever allow into the hands of players.

Now, the second issue:

Omnimechs

The arguments against omnis will be very similar to the arguments against clan tech but the truth is that omnis are superior to battlemechs in every way. They make battlemechs completely obsolete.

Which means battlemechs become nothing but a worthless stepping stone to omnimechs much like how all IS technology will be nothing but a worthless stepping stone to clan tech.

You're not ever going to see any Highlanders or Cyclops running around if Sunders are made available.

The ultimate solution is to go ahead and include omnimechs but convert them to battlemechs for the sake of gameplay. That way we can still enjoy the mechs themselves but they won't destroy any hope for the rest of the battlemechs.

Conclusion

In the end the inclusion of both omnimechs and clan technology will devolve all end game into nothing but omni and clan tech acquisition races. IS mechs with IS tech will not be able to compete at the highest levels of gameplay which will be absolutely devastating for any leagues which spring up around BT roleplay constructs.

Factions will be wildly imbalanced and 50-75% of the mechs and equipment in the game will be utterly worthless at high level play.

So if your goal is to empty the IS factions, fill up the clans as much as possible, and then rip the hearts out of dozens of classic and iconic mechs then by all means, have your clan tech and omnis.

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs.

Edited by Cavadus, 09 November 2011 - 09:50 AM.


#2 snowridr

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:50 AM

Clan mechs are going to be in the game, not adding them would be disruptive to the game universe. However, the devs can make sure clan tech is rare, hard to maintain and very very expensive. Also, they could add a tonnage modifier to games, so clan mechs get rated at 1.5 tons to ever IS 1 ton. This will help balance the lance on lance games.

#3 Eradikitten

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:53 AM

What timeframe does the game take place in? Anything before 3048 and clan mechs would be VERY disruptive to the game universe.

I agree with Cavadus however. Clan mechs are not needed, and introducing the clans to the game will put a nasty "I win" faction in.

#4 wolf on the tide

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:53 AM

nice post,
let me play devil's advocate for 1 moment:-

MONEY.

...they jack the points cost up to reflect the clan way of doing things (bid to send the clan force down, lowest bid wins) and add in the fact that IS mechs probably outnumber clan mechs 3-to-1...

and HEY PRESTO! you've got a match with a 12 mech IS regiment, and a star of 5 clan mechs.

further more, if the devs then decide that to be a clan pilot you have to be captured and turned into a freeborn bondsman... then you need to fight hard against the clans to get captured perhaps?

again, money.

their here to make a profit from the game, after all.

#5 Darian DelFord

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:56 AM

View Postsnowridr, on 09 November 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

Clan mechs are going to be in the game, not adding them would be disruptive to the game universe. However, the devs can make sure clan tech is rare, hard to maintain and very very expensive. Also, they could add a tonnage modifier to games, so clan mechs get rated at 1.5 tons to ever IS 1 ton. This will help balance the lance on lance games.


Yeah OK if you think that is the answer, think again.

#6 Adridos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:58 AM

What's so OP about the omni mechs, that you are always talking about? There isn't any gameplay difference between them and the normal battlemechs. I know they can attach, detach weapons at will, but it isn't game breaking thing and they are much more expensive than regular mechs. Tell me, why would people play just omnis? :)
Oh, and BTW: Sunder was introduced in 3058 and by that day, there will probably be a next game out. All the omnis are late war things as far as I know. :D

Edited by Adridos, 09 November 2011 - 10:00 AM.


#7 Sajuuk

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:59 AM

Hey look, another clan whining thread. Woo...

#8 Perfecto Oviedo

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:00 AM

Would it be so bad a thing to skew canon to make the game balanced? I mean, in Mech 3 you had Battles and Omnis, and they pretty much worked the same way, and I thought that game was great.

Regardless of how they work around the Clan issues:

The fact of the matter is that this game will include Omnis, and it will include the Clans. You can't have a Mechwarrior game that will start in 3049, the year the invasion starts, that doesn't include the clans. Especially if they want to follow Canon.

The Devs know what they're doing. They will make it so, however the clans operate, it will be balanced, or at least as they beta and patch the game, it will be fine.

#9 Randolph Carter

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:01 AM

Seconded. Anyone expecting purity to existing storyline will have to temper their expectations.

This issue runs deeper that technology and descends even into simple history. My understanding would be that the game is going to be an alternate history of the BT universe, the starting point being 3049. Otherwise, for instance, select few will be a part of Smoke Jaguar knowing that their annihilation is destined during Operation Bulldog, the defeat at Tukkayid & subsequent truce is inevitable, &c.

I've been a player of the tabletop boardgame for well in excess of a decade and PC since MW2. As folks who have been around the game for awhile, we'll need to give the developers a certain amount of poetic license in order to ensure variety and excitement.

#10 Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:04 AM

Clan vs IS round 100....! :) *yawn*

Cmon guys, this has been discussed dozens of times!

#11 Sajuuk

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:05 AM

View PostThe_Birdeater, on 09 November 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clan vs IS round 100....! :D *yawn*

Cmon guys, this has been discussed dozens of times!



And its only been a week :)

#12 Perfecto Oviedo

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:08 AM

If they wanted MechWarrior without the Clans, they should have started in 3015, like the reboot trailer did. But it's currently 3048: The Explorer Corps vessel Outbound Light is due to run into the Clans at Huntress. When the game starts, the invasion can't be far behind. I don't see any solid evidence to suggest that the clans won't be involved, that the established canon won't be followed. I do think that the devs will sacrifice some canon in the interest of balanced game play.

#13 Halfinax

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:09 AM

Battle Value, or some variant there of. I will play IS regardless of Clan introduction, and I am sure the developer's will balance the game with the Clans in mind.

We just had this argument in the other thread, and now you make a whole new thread for it?

#14 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:10 AM

The problem is that the Clans are/were the alpha's. They are part of the game. Buck up secure your pair (of socks) and prepare for the beating that HAPPENED IN THE BOOKS! It would be better for the Clans to be AI so we don't have to go into Player "X" is not playing the Clan correctly!

I know I'm on the underdog side, I wanna see how I/we can do!

#15 avril omega

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:12 AM

i see your point but the same thing could be said about tonage ? my battlemaster kills your wasp every time no matter how skilled you are.
and you are defantly wrong on omni mechs because if this game has the same mech lab as the mechwarrior games then all mechs will be just as good as omnis . you just need the parts and money to fix them . i realy mean it didnt we all bild the atlas 2 c in mech warrior 4.
it just will come down to the spoil sports that play clans .

#16 Haeso

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:17 AM

I'm hoping the timeline is AU in that the players determine the outcomes of these historical battles, and that the timeline only dictates how the game begins rather than how it plays out.

I doubt that's the case though and we only influence minor stuff.

#17 AdamBaines

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:18 AM

View PostAdridos, on 09 November 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

What's so OP about the omni mechs, that you are always talking about? There isn't any gameplay difference between them and the normal battlemechs. I know they can attach, detach weapons at will, but it isn't game breaking thing and they are much more expensive than regular mechs. Tell me, why would people play just omnis? :)
Oh, and BTW: Sunder was introduced in 3058 and by that day, there will probably be a next game out. All the omnis are late war things as far as I know. :D


Well when the Clans first invaded, they had better:

Armor: Lighter and stronger
Weapons: Ex. PPC vs. ERPPC. Lasers vs Pulse Lasers. There weapons were superior in range and damage profile.
Others: They had C3 Targeting systems before the IS did. Better Engines, etc.

Over time the IS attained those techs, but it was rare still. The Omni part was just icing on the cake.

So it all depends on when they are going to start the time line. if I remember correctly, its a few years before the Clan Invasion. If that's true, and when they do introduce the Clans, the IS will get whopped for awhile, just like in the Cannon.

I don't like the clans from a RP perspective, but they are an integral part of the Battletech Cannon and need to be included in this game at some point. And if people role play the Clanners correctly, it should be a fair fight as the clans will usually have smaller numbers in a fight then IS opponents because of the Clan biding process (which i doubt people will RP as they are munchie and just want to win :-)).

#18 avril omega

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:20 AM

View PostThe_Birdeater, on 09 November 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clan vs IS round 100....! :) *yawn*

Cmon guys, this has been discussed dozens of times!

yea but until we get to kill some thing any thin all we can do is wine about the clans ?

#19 Gaius Cavadus

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:22 AM

I never once said we can't have the clans or omnimechs at all. They need to use the same tech base as the IS if they're allowed into the game.

I've said this a few times but for the clan invasion give the clans IS Level 2 tech, let the IS be a little disadvantaged for a 30-day in-game invasion event, and then merge it all after the event.

That'll simulate the clan invasion, allow the clans to be initially technologically superior, and still maintain complete balance after the event is over and the IS gets bumped up to Level 2 tech.

As for omnimechs, they need to be converted to battlemechs and introduced that way. I said this in the OP very clearly. There's no point in using the TT's crit slot system as that makes every make an omnimech plus that system was made for building completely new and custom mechs. It was never really meant for modifying canon mechs. Many people don't understand that.

#20 Adridos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:23 AM

View PostAdamBaines, on 09 November 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:


Well when the Clans first invaded, they had better:

Armor: Lighter and stronger
Weapons: Ex. PPC vs. ERPPC. Lasers vs Pulse Lasers. There weapons were superior in range and damage profile.
Others: They had C3 Targeting systems before the IS did. Better Engines, etc.

Over time the IS attained those techs, but it was rare still. The Omni part was just icing on the cake.

So it all depends on when they are going to start the time line. if I remember correctly, its a few years before the Clan Invasion. If that's true, and when they do introduce the Clans, the IS will get whopped for awhile, just like in the Cannon.

I don't like the clans from a RP perspective, but they are an integral part of the Battletech Cannon and need to be included in this game at some point. And if people role play the Clanners correctly, it should be a fair fight as the clans will usually have smaller numbers in a fight then IS opponents because of the Clan biding process (which i doubt people will RP as they are munchie and just want to win :-)).


I asked about his complains on omni mechs actually. Better equipment is covered in the upper part of his *cough*whine*cough* thread, but he devoted a part just for omnis and said, that they are OP, so I'm asking him why. :)





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