276 replies to this topic

[Halfinax]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

I never once said we can't have the clans or omnimechs at all. They need to use the same tech base as the IS if they're allowed into the game.

I've said this a few times but for the clan invasion give the clans IS Level 2 tech, let the IS be a little disadvantaged for a 30-day in-game invasion event, and then merge it all after the event.

That'll simulate the clan invasion, allow the clans to be initially technologically superior, and still maintain complete balance after the event is over and the IS gets bumped up to Level 2 tech.

As for omnimechs, they need to be converted to battlemechs and introduced that way. I said this in the OP very clearly. There's no point in using the TT's crit slot system as that makes every make an omnimech plus that system was made for building completely new and custom mechs. It was never really meant for modifying canon mechs. Many people don't understand that.

You are still ignoring the simplest balance option and that is assigning Battle Value to units in the game. It is how the TT game is balanced, and with some tweaking it could be adapted to work just as well in this iteration of the game.

[AdamBaines]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

I asked about his complains on omni mechs actually. Better equipment is covered in the upper part of his *cough*whine*cough* thread, but he devoted a part just for omnis and said, that they are OP, so I'm asking him why.

Ahhhh....my bad :-) Man you reply fast. Jimminy Christmas1 :-)

[Adridos]

AdamBaines, on 09 November 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

Ahhhh....my bad :-) Man you reply fast. Jimminy Christmas1 :-)

I've got nothing to do right now.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

I'm all for putting clans and clan tech in the game, just fix the long standing balance issues!
make clan tech star league+ instead of MarySueTech

case in point, let's take the ER Large Laser from the TT
ref:: http://www.sarna.net.../ER_Large_Laser

Inner Sphere
Range in hexes: 7/14/19
Damage: 8
Heat: 12
Tons: 5

Clan
Range in hexes: 8/15/25
Damage: 10
Heat: 12
Tons: 4
Crits: 1

I agree with the range, heat, and damage. However, during even stock omni construction;
the ERCL is not only 1 crit smaller, but 1 ton lighter!
So we have a weapon that is better in every way possible
this is not how you balance something, you balance an item by making it good in one way, but have some sort of trade off.
the current ERCL has no trade off!
1-2 of these stats must be toned down to make it workable

now in terms of TT make all clan pilots better gunners and drivers...
again, put clan tech, put in omnis but for *** sakes correct the rush-job that was their playtesting!
solve the decades long headache of clan balance, and you indeed will have an awesome game!

[Gaius Cavadus]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

I asked about his complains on omni mechs actually. Better equipment is covered in the upper part of his *cough*whine*cough* thread, but he devoted a part just for omnis and said, that they are OP, so I'm asking him why.

Explain to me why would anyone would ever want a battlemech of equal tonnage over it's omnimech equivalent.

Outside of sheer aesthetic there is none. Omnimechs can be customized easily; battlemechs cannot. If you want to cling to canon then you must understand that even though an omnimech may be initially more expensive at purchase it will be far cheaper to modify whereas battlemechs can barely be modified and it's a huge undertaking.

So why would I, average Joe, ever want a battlemech when I could have an omnimech? What would be the point of battlemechs besides being a stepping stone to omnis?

Even the economics are on my side. If you make omnis more expensive it won't matter because a player will still save on costs as modification will be possible and cheaper which means the mech is more versatile. It would take 3 or 4 battlemechs to offer the flexibility of a single omni.

This will lead to battlemechs being excluded from from high level play while being cheaper in the long run.

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

So why would I, average Steve, ever go in something of lesser tonnage than 100t?

If the only objective is to defeat the opfor then you would never want anything less than 100 tons. Creating roles for smaller mechs beyond grinding advancement will be based on how successful Piranha is with implementing objective based gameplay that plays to strengths of mechs below 100 tons.

World of Tanks never got that part down.

Edited by Cavadus, 09 November 2011 - 10:36 AM.

[Adridos]

So why would I, average Steve, ever go in something of lesser tonnage than 100t?

You posted liek the omni mechs are the problem, but it's the same problem as with other mechs: "More shiny, me want!"

Edited by Adridos, 09 November 2011 - 10:35 AM.

[Gaius Cavadus]

halfinax, on 09 November 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

You are still ignoring the simplest balance option and that is assigning Battle Value to units in the game. It is how the TT game is balanced, and with some tweaking it could be adapted to work just as well in this iteration of the game.

BV only balances things on a per match basis. You're still running into the issue of IS mechs and all IS tech being wildly inferior. The average player will recognize the clans technological superiority and join them.

What good is a BV system when only one side has players?

[Haeso]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

this is not how you balance something, you balance an item by making it good in one way, but have some sort of trade off.
the current ERCL has no trade off!

You can balance clan tech/Omni's by just doing a BV system rather than just tonnage. Table top works just fine.

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

BV only balances things on a per match basis. You're still running into the issue of IS mechs and all IS tech being wildly inferior. The average player will recognize the clans technological superiority and join them.

What good is a BV system when only one side has players?

Because if the BV of clans is balanced, you're going to see 5 Med/heavy mechs against 4 assault mechs? BV does work in table top, it'll take some adjusting, but it's doable if they work at it.

I'd have preferred the succession war period rather than clan invasion, for this one reason and a few others, but they CAN make it work.

Edited by Haeso, 09 November 2011 - 10:38 AM.

[Kalunta]

So much fear...

I still think that stuff like joining a Clan or playing or getting your hands on Clan tech should be very difficult and limited. I don't want the "casual gamer" to drop in and be able to just select whatever guns they want --- that would ruin it. Joining the lower tier of a IS house should be open for anyone, but then they would need to advance their avatar up in both XP and ranks, i.e. becoming a CO should take time, effort and work; likewise, when the clans come, joining one (assuming we will be able to) should not be easy and, no, the casual gamer who is just dropping in for a laugh and giggle and to blow some stuff up with the best guns shouldn't have instant access to it.

With all due respect to the OP, I like a lot of the classic IS mechs --- they are not "stepping stones" Look at how many want their Marauders and Warhammers back.

[AdamBaines]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

Explain to me why would anyone would ever want a battlemech of equal tonnage over it's omnimech equivalent.

Outside of sheer aesthetic there is none. Omnimechs can be customized easily; battlemechs cannot. If you want to cling to canon then you must understand that even though an omnimech may be initially more expensive at purchase it will be far cheaper to modify whereas battlemechs can barely be modified and it's a huge undertaking.

So why would I, average Joe, ever want a battlemech when I could have an omnimech? What would be the point of battlemechs besides being a stepping stone to omnis?

Even the economics are on my side. If you make omnis more expensive it won't matter because a player will still save on costs as modification will be possible and cheaper which means the mech is more versatile. It would take 3 or 4 battlemechs to offer the flexibility of a single omni.

This will lead to battlemechs being excluded from from high level play while being cheaper in the long run.

Well I would say its all about RP at that point. If you want to in a House, you wont have access to Clan tech, or rarely will. if you want clan tech then join a clan.

But also remember its not just Clans Vs. IS. While thats happening you have IS vs IS and Clans vs Clans. me Im going to be a merc or run in house Marik, so I already know I wont have access to much clan tech until further down the line when it becomes more prevalent in the IS. Your looking at this like WoT where Im looking at this like other MPBT games We can debate about allot of this, but until we really know whats up the Devs sleeves, we wont know how we will game play really. Its all conjecture based off of a small post.

[Adridos]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

BV only balances things on a per match basis. You're still running into the issue of IS mechs and all IS tech being wildly inferior. The average player will recognize the clans technological superiority and join them.

What good is a BV system when only one side has players?

As I know casual players, if you tell them, that the side is outnumbered and requires skill, they won't play it and rather stick to the more hordy option, where failure of one isn't that fatal to the team (of coures there are idiots that will play the outnumbered ones anyway).

[Mechteric]

I think people are forgetting the #1 key factor that balances out the Clan versus IS technology in the lore, (and its not BV): C-Bills!


Of course you also have scarcity, but that is really just a C-Bill modifier as things are bound to be more expensive when they're harder to obtain. I think it would be fair to think that if one team brings along a start of clan mechs they will be facing two to three lances of IS battlemechs. If MWLL has taught me anything, there is power in numbers.

Edited by capperdeluxe, 09 November 2011 - 10:39 AM.

[Haeso]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:

As I know casual players, if you tell them, that the side is outnumbered and requires skill, they won't play it and rather stick to the more hordy option, where failure of one isn't that fatal to the team (of coures there are idiots that will play the outnumbered ones anyway).

You're acting as if the casual player is a cold, calculating individual wishing to hide his inadequacies, more accurately, they just wish to have fun. It will not have such a large impact on faction choice.

[Halfinax]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

BV only balances things on a per match basis. You're still running into the issue of IS mechs and all IS tech being wildly inferior. The average player will recognize the clans technological superiority and join them.

What good is a BV system when only one side has players?

I think they would also notice that they would always be outnumbered. I think you also assume that most are just going to run to Clan and virtually no one will stay IS. I for one will stay IS and I am sure there are plenty more that will too.

[JzT Dolomite]

Adridos, on 09 November 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

What's so OP about the omni mechs, that you are always talking about? There isn't any gameplay difference between them and the normal battlemechs. I know they can attach, detach weapons at will, but it isn't game breaking thing and they are much more expensive than regular mechs. Tell me, why would people play just omnis?
Oh, and BTW: Sunder was introduced in 3058 and by that day, there will probably be a next game out. All the omnis are late war things as far as I know.

Its the timeline that is most important. If we are starting the game at 3049, the IS BARELY is scratching the surface of reclaiming lost/advanced tech. The clan when they show up have all their mechs with advanced tech that not as much outguns as outdistances the IS.

Plus Omnitech allows different configs to be swapped in and out at will, and less restrictions than a mech that is hardwired for this weapon in this space.

In gameterms: the Clans Omnimechs could change their configs so you could only guess at what it had and ALL clan weapons had range advantages over the IS till later in the invasion.

[Adridos]

Haeso, on 09 November 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

You're acting as if the casual player is a cold, calculating individual wishing to hide his inadequacies, more accurately, they just wish to have fun. It will not have such a large impact on faction choice.

But IS is better for casuals, you don't have to be outnumbered, you don't have to put the max out of your mech, etc.

[Gaius Cavadus]

halfinax, on 09 November 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think they would also notice that they would always be outnumbered. I think you also assume that most are just going to run to Clan and virtually no one will stay IS. I for one will stay IS and I am sure there are plenty more that will too.

Yes, let's rely on a handful of roleplayers maintain faction balance. There's no way that will fail.

Edited by Cavadus, 09 November 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[Kalunta]

Davion Heavy Guards
Strength of the Davions

... could this be why?

[Halfinax]

capperdeluxe, on 09 November 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:

I think people are forgetting the #1 key factor that balances out the Clan versus IS technology in the lore, (and its not BV): C-Bills!


Of course you also have scarcity, but that is really just a C-Bill modifier as things are bound to be more expensive when they're harder to obtain. I think it would be fair to think that if one team brings along a start of clan mechs they will be facing two to three lances of IS battlemechs. If MWLL has taught me anything, there is power in numbers.

C-bills aren't adequate and aren't balanced. I guess with some tweaking they could be, but I'd hate to see a match be based on the C-bill value of 'Mechs.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Kalunta, on 09 November 2011 - 10:43 AM, said:

Davion Heavy Guards Strength of the Davions ... could this be why?

Not really. I'd actually rather be Marian than anything else but DHG was my old MW guild from 10+ years ago.

That being said, if the advantage of the clans was consistent with canon I'd either just join the clans for no other reason than their tech or quit the game.