276 replies to this topic

[AdamBaines]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

its a bit of a portmanteau; Mary Sue is generally a literary term for a character that is purely contrived
to satisfy an author's wish within a piece of work. A Mary Sue is perfect in every way, has no flaws,
can't be killed etc, this is also more seen the FanFiction stuff than anywhere else.

ergo MarySueTech is my portmanteau of explaining current clan tech; that its game breaking, doesnt
fit into the universe and appears to be extremely contrived.

I am not going to get into the game breaking, but does not fit into the universe? It fits in perfectly and makes total sense. House lords beating each other to shreds for 300 years loosing tech levels, can't hold up to the superior Clan tech which not only has not lost a step, but lept forward. Now how you handle that difference in a game like this? I have my opinions, but I'll leave up to the know-it-alls and math people ;-)

[Stormwolf]

I don't care about the tech or numbers, I just wanna play my favorite faction.

The tech introduced in TRO 3050 along with a the SL era mechs piloted by Comstar are going to be sufficient to defeat a Clan force if they have the numbers.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

AdamBaines, on 09 November 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

I am not going to get into the game breaking, but does not fit into the universe? It fits in perfectly and makes total sense. House lords beating each other to shreds for 300 years loosing tech levels, can't hold up to the superior Clan tech which not only has not lost a step, but lept forward. Now how you handle that difference in a game like this? I have my opinions, but I'll leave up to the know-it-alls and math people ;-)

Let me reiterate myself

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

I am talking from a game-system perspective, not in-game. Their in-game explanation is just as bad: the idea
that the clans could make better equipment off in deep periphery is akin to saying Puritan colonists in America
would have made a steam engine by the time the American Revolution occurred because they werent fighting a
total war against the French or Spanish...or even better; that Aborigines from Australia would have gunpowder
before anyone else because their tribe was isolated to the deep South Pacific!

is battletech a perfect mirror of our world? hell no
HOWEVER
battletech certainly upholds a lot of human truths about development pre-Star League
another example I just realized, if the clans could make tech in a vaccuum
how was it that the IS couldnt do it faster and easier? the IS has more people,
resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

[Cake Bandit]

Weren't the clans introduced to give established players a reason to buy new miniatures back in the day? That would explain why they were generally bigger and tougher than the IS mechs.

I don't see a problem with including them, or their equipment, but either make them balanced through mechanics or make it clan tech in name only. I'm not even sure what an omnimech is outside of all this talk of hot-swappable arms.

[Stormwolf]

Cake Bandit, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

I'm not even sure what an omnimech is outside of all this talk of hot-swappable arms.

Don't feel like writing a article, here you go:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

[Mechwarrior Of Rock]

So basically Cavadus is saying no ER lasers and no Mad Cat. There has always been the Mad Cat and ER lasers.

[Glare]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Let me reiterate myself


is battletech a perfect mirror of our world? hell no
HOWEVER
battletech certainly upholds a lot of human truths about development pre-Star League
another example I just realized, if the clans could make tech in a vaccuum
how was it that the IS couldnt do it faster and easier? the IS has more people,
resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

Congratulations, you have completely and utterly ignored my reply to this very question. Have a nice day.

[Stormwolf]

Captain Wolfus Maximus, on 09 November 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:

So basically Cavadus is saying no ER lasers and no Mad Cat. There has always been the Mad Cat and ER lasers.

Except in MW1

Anyway, the year 3049 is relevant because of the invasion, the game would have been set in 3015 or 3025 if they just wanted I.S. mechs.
So this entire thread is not gonna have any impact whatsoever.

[AdamBaines]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

battletech certainly upholds a lot of human truths about development pre-Star League
another example I just realized, if the clans could make tech in a vaccuum
how was it that the IS couldnt do it faster and easier? the IS has more people,
resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

300 years of undisciplined mass collateral damge war will do that. Where the IS would bomb everything and destroy precious resources just so that the enemy would not have it (ie space stations, jump ships, factories, memory cores, etc) where the clans after the Pentegon Wars put rules around warfare so as technology would not decline, but really fat foreward. Things like Trials of Posession allowed Clans to get their hands on opposition clan's tech without much destruction.

We are talking about a FICTIONAL universe of course, so anything we debate really has no real answer as it is FICTION ;-)

Again, Im not a Clan player, but they are a part of the universe and should be included. Ill just have to trust Dev will figure it out :-)

[Halfinax]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Let me reiterate myself


is battletech a perfect mirror of our world? hell no
HOWEVER
battletech certainly upholds a lot of human truths about development pre-Star League
another example I just realized, if the clans could make tech in a vaccuum
how was it that the IS couldnt do it faster and easier? the IS has more people,
resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

I've seen it mentioned that Strana Meckty (where the clans were formed) is also known as "The Depot Planet" as it was one of the original Star League weapon cache planets.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

AdamBaines, on 09 November 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

300 years of undisciplined mass collateral damge war will do that. Where the IS would bomb everything and destroy precious resources just so that the enemy would not have it (ie space stations, jump ships, factories, memory cores, etc) where the clans after the Pentegon Wars put rules around warfare so as technology would not decline, but really fat foreward. Things like Trials of Posession allowed Clans to get their hands on opposition clan's tech without much destruction.

We are talking about a FICTIONAL universe of course, so anything we debate really has no real answer as it is FICTION ;-)

Again, Im not a Clan player, but they are a part of the universe and should be included. Ill just have to trust Dev will figure it out :-)

you're going to tell me that the IS can reverse engineer clan tech inside of 30 years, where most clan tech
wasn't outlined in a Star League memory core; but the IS couldnt regain a level of sophistication of the SL
by say 2900?

thus I pull it back to saying that because its fiction, Clan tech always felt like
MarySueTech, contrived (brought the argument around and home, see what I did thar!? lol)

Glare, on 09 November 2011 - 11:28 AM, said:

Congratulations, you have completely and utterly ignored my reply to this very question. Have a nice day.

<conciliatory tone> I'm sorry I did not respond to your post, but what I was going to write I felt wasn't going
to come out right, but if you insist.

what I pointed out were two actual historical circumstances which support my argument, that no tech is
developed in a vacuum (you can add a third; Native Americans development path vs European/Middle Eastern)
what you replied with is a hypothetical scenario that even if it happened, South America wouldn't be spared either,
its nuclear holocaust.

halfinax, on 09 November 2011 - 11:36 AM, said:

I've seen it mentioned that Strana Meckty (where the clans were formed) is also known as "The Depot Planet" as it was one of the original Star League weapon cache planets.

where? cross-reference canon galaxy maps and you can plainly see that the Kerenksy cluster is way outside of known space at the time of
its founding. It is also where Nicholas and his followers fled during the Pentagon Wars, making the Pentagon planets a more likely yet more recent depot SL tech than Strana Mechty

[Kalunta]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Let me reiterate myself


is battletech a perfect mirror of our world? hell no
HOWEVER
battletech certainly upholds a lot of human truths about development pre-Star League
another example I just realized, if the clans could make tech in a vaccuum
how was it that the IS couldnt do it faster and easier? the IS has more people,
resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

The IS was more concerned with costly faction wars, infighting and destruction vying for marginal petty pyrrhic victories in the name of their regal houses. That's why.

[AdamBaines]

You don't have to be a **** to people Aaron. They are just trying to give their opinions just like you. This is supposed to be a discussion. This started as a fun discussion and has turned sour.

EDIT: Man, its interesting the words this forum chooses to bleep out :-)

Edited by AdamBaines, 09 November 2011 - 11:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gimme a Gauss Rifle (the great equalizer) and some Medium Lasers and point me towards the Clanner front line! I'm ready for the fight... and salvage!

[CoffiNail]

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

Except in MW1

Anyway, the year 3049 is relevant because of the invasion, the game would have been set in 3015 or 3025 if they just wanted I.S. mechs.
So this entire thread is not gonna have any impact whatsoever.

QFT!!

halfinax, on 09 November 2011 - 11:36 AM, said:

I've seen it mentioned that Strana Meckty (where the clans were formed) is also known as "The Depot Planet" as it was one of the original Star League weapon cache planets.

Yes it is, when the Keresnky cluster was first colonized Strana Mechty was made a depot planet. It was not a SLDF one until the Exodus, and they settled where they did. So you are correct in a sense

[Kalunta]

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

Except in MW1

Anyway, the year 3049 is relevant because of the invasion, the game would have been set in 3015 or 3025 if they just wanted I.S. mechs.
So this entire thread is not gonna have any impact whatsoever.

Exactly. 3015 would have been a cool game --- stock IS mechs of the era only. However, the timeline has changed and no matter how fearful nor how much hatred one may have for the Clans, their time is right around the corner --- and I'm thinking it's going to be a challenge and lot of fun for everyone regardless of alignment.

[Perfecto Oviedo]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

where? cross-reference canon galaxy maps and you can plainly see that the Kerenksy cluster is way outside of known space at the time of
its founding. It is also where Nicholas and his followers fled during the Pentagon Wars, making the Pentagon planets a more likely yet more recent depot SL tech than Strana Mechty

Arcadia has a Brian Cache on its Rechlan continent. I haven't looked at the other 4 worlds, but there may be other pieces of tech on the other worlds.

And about LosTech and stuff like that, I can easily see how, if important heads and centers of industry are blown to kingdom come, I can see how the IS would definitely lose tech over the course of four long succession wars. That coupled with the clan's Rules of Engagement, and their finding at least one Brian Cache (admittedly it would have been somewhat comparable to their current level of Tech) could put their technological prowess over that of the IS.

[wanderer]

See, I can see some ways Clan technology and Omnis work just fine.

Make it so Omnis are more expensive to repair, though faster to do so/modify. Heck, the base cost of an Omnimech is significantly higher than an identically equipped standard 'Mech in canon anyway.

Clan technology isn't produced in the Inner Sphere- only salvaged. You manage to get an Uller up and running after plenty of pain and suffering from the parts of three you salvaged...but it then gets both arms blown off and loses it's gyro to boot the next battle. Good luck on getting the parts to keep anything running for more than a fight or two.

Good luck finding replacement parts when that means "salvaging the most dangerous 'Mechs around". In a game where 'Mechs are constantly being damaged, not having a steady supply of repair parts is a gloriously good way to choke-hold it's overuse.

[Halfinax]

CoffiNail, on 09 November 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

Yes it is, when the Keresnky cluster was first colonized Strana Mechty was made a depot planet. It was not a SLDF one until the Exodus, and they settled where they did. So you are correct in a sense

Ah, I only had the information 3rd hand and was trying to find it myself. I tried to be clear that it was hear say on my part, but apparently that didn't come out as clearly as I thought.

[Glare]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

you're going to tell me that the IS can reverse engineer clan tech inside of 30 years, where most clan tech
wasn't outlined in a Star League memory core; but the IS couldnt regain a level of sophistication of the SL
by say 2900?

This is where I remind you that the rediscovery of the Helm Memory Core jumpstarted the technological recovery of the Inner Sphere. You pointed it out yourself; the Inner Sphere is vastly more populous and even after 300 years of constant mostly unregulated warfare still has significant infrastructure. Lemme say that again in case you try to ignore it: Rediscovery. The means of producing these things were well and truly lost until the Helm Memory Core. It took the original Star League and member states hundreds of years to get to where they were at the time of the Exodus. The first BattleMech rolled off of the line in 2455. Two hundred and ninety five years later, the Inner Sphere goes into technological rewind, courtesy of absolutely massive chemical, biological, nuclear and radiological warfare on a scale never before seen and never seen again, even well into the Jihad. In less than a hundred years, they managed to smash flat anything that could advance technology, and destroyed much of everything more advanced than what is now Introductory level tech. With the rediscovery of the HMC, it took the entire time up to the Clan Invasion to ramp up production again to anything approaching decent numbers. As of the Clan Invasion, most of the Inner Sphere still fields Introductory tech designs. There was no 'reverse engineering.' Nearly everything the Clans came back with existed at some point in the Star League.

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

<conciliatory tone> I'm sorry I did not respond to your post, but what I was going to write I felt wasn't going
to come out right, but if you insist.

what I pointed out were two actual historical circumstances which support my argument, that no tech is
developed in a vacuum (you can add a third; Native Americans development path vs European/Middle Eastern)
what you replied with is a hypothetical scenario that even if it happened, South America wouldn't be spared either,
its nuclear holocaust.

And now I can congratulate you for entirely missing the point of my arbitrary example. The point is that whatever group wasn't participating was spared, which allowed for the continued advancement of technology. The example you just added only supports my claim further. European/Middle Eastern technology was considerably more advanced because of just how often they decided to try and kill each other in new and inventive ways over the course of a thousand years.

You are arguing with canon, and it has a very strong and sensical backing to it. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's wrong.