66 replies to this topic

[Ordate]

I'm serious. This is the first set of mechs that I have tried where I just get rolled constantly.
These are my 3 builds:
2x
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...289690beb8155cf
3d
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2da5d0d029dab8f
4x
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c24f1f4144d8752

My KDR is less then one in these. My WLR are less then 1 in these. As opposed to my quickderps which have much greater then 1 ratios. I am doing something fundamentally wrong. But can't figure out what it is. Does anyone have any advice beyond the basics? And just a note, not thrilled with advice slap on 2 ppcs and a gauss.

Just a not, the 4x don't remember exactly where I stuck the ammo but it isnt all sitting in cts.

Edited by Ordate, 06 July 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Agmar Strick]

Funny, isn't it? It got a 2x recently, set it up in much the same way and it was like a second skin. My atlas d however,is a train wreck. Kdr 0.5.

Anyways, I play my 2x like a bigger fatter hunchie. Typically supporting the assaults, but it is fast enough for flanking too. It's close range, and does poorly as a hill humper so don't rush in first. Be a little cautious, and aim straight with that ac20.

[Hebdomas]

Cataphracts are slower (usually) than Quickdraws and lack the jump jets (except the 3D). You generally don't have the mobility of a Quickdraw so stay in cover or behind something bigger than you.

What are your Quickdraws like? I have a feeling that they have a different role and play style than your Cataphracts. Your 2x is going to be a brawler, 3D is somewhat long range or a possible sniper and 4x looks like mid range or suppressing fire.

I normally play my Cataphracts by staying near an assault, supporting them and flanking when it would prove useful.

[dak irakoz]

never put ammo in the torsos.

[B0oN]

dak irakoz, on 07 July 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

never put ammo in the torsos.

With non-exploding Gauss ammunitions the risk is non-existent
The rest is cheeky indeed .

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 07 July 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ordate, on 06 July 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

I'm serious. This is the first set of mechs that I have tried where I just get rolled constantly.
These are my 3 builds:
2x
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...289690beb8155cf
3d
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2da5d0d029dab8f
4x
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c24f1f4144d8752

My KDR is less then one in these. My WLR are less then 1 in these. As opposed to my quickderps which have much greater then 1 ratios. I am doing something fundamentally wrong. But can't figure out what it is. Does anyone have any advice beyond the basics? And just a note, not thrilled with advice slap on 2 ppcs and a gauss.

Just a not, the 4x don't remember exactly where I stuck the ammo but it isnt all sitting in cts.

They're all just bad builds, although the 2X is semi-salvageable.

This is what you should consider:
CTF-2X

The ASRM4s are better because frankly, using SRM6s requires you to spend a tad more time staring at your target.. which 'phracts cannot afford to do due to hitboxes.

I have no ideas for the 4X, but since you don't want a 3D suggestion that fits the meta, I cannot really help you there (it's pretty much the best/standard build for it in the first place).

[Kanatta Jing]

Well, Ammo and Guass rifles explode when they get hit and that's a big handicap for your 4X. Try splitting the ammo between the arms.

As for your 2X... I'm pretty sure that you have to much ammo. You can probably ditch 3 tons and upgrade a 300 engine. Just to get some speed into your brawler. But the whole thing would probably feel less dysfunctional if you switched the SRM 6's for a pair of Streaks. Just so you aren't struggling to hit people with three different things at the same time.

[Kragg Relluf]

Ordate -

I have same problem with cataphracts. I do fine in jagers, catapults and assaults, and starting to get into mediums, but put me in a cataphract, and I die. I get back in one every once and again to see if I can get better with it.

Agmar Strick, on 07 July 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

Funny, isn't it? It got a 2x recently, set it up in much the same way and it was like a second skin. My atlas d however,is a train wreck. Kdr 0.5.

I've often marvelled at the same thing. Pretty neat how different mechs are better for different people than others.

[Phoebe]

I have lot of success with this 4x, and it's one of the most fun mechs for me!! Can counter well snipers not facing you thanks to the constant fire. Ammo may seem low, but today the only match I used it all, I did 960 damage.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...01c6893a23c07a9

Edited by Phoebe, 07 July 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[scJazz]

The Gauss Rifle in the 3Ds torso is just way to volatile for an XL Engine. 90% chance to explode and like zero HP. Move it out to the arm if you insist on having it at all. I know why you put it there for Arm grouping the Large Lasers. Don't. The torso Hardpoints on the Cataphracts are as high up as the arms are low. Put the big guns in the Torsos. Medium Lasers for zapping lights out in the arms. Personally, I just said screw it and put 4 PPCs on mine... cheesy but effective. Main group 2 Torso PPCs, 2nd group 2 arm PPCs.

[Koniving]

This info is a bit dated, but still relevant. If you click the arrow to the left of the quote you can jump to that thread; there's 3 pages on Phracts, tactics using them, etc.

Koniving, on 23 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Played every cataphract except the 3D (including the Muromets).

3-D just has jump jets, and unfortunately will spoil your appetite (never start with the best as the rest become mediocre). My votes are for the 1X and the 2X.

The 1X's high energy concentration allows you to focus less on weight management and more on heat management and demonstrates both the power of energy weapons and the excellence of a single ballistic (for a low heat firing solution while running hot).

The 2X is great because it allows for both a good concentration of energy weapons, while allowing for both a ballistic and missile solution to help balance your capabilities.

That said, I'll tell you right now that No Cataphract is good for a new player. They are designed as an emergency effort by House Liao to construct heavy mechs in 3020 something after losing key factories which limited them to light and medium mechs with a bunch of clunkers. It is designed as a direct fire support mech, NOT a brawler as many foolishly try to use it for and as anyone who thinks "Oooo ballistics" will try.

Its shoulders are wide and easy to disable, making it terrible for XL engines. This typically forces them to be very slow, preventing you from being able to escape should you make a not so bright move.

As such there's little room for mistakes. You screw up, you die, and you'll blame the chassis as many often do. Much the same reason people blame the 2x and 4x Ravens when they fail to perform like the 3-L; it's not because the variants suck. It is because they are not built for the same roles, and the pilot does not have the experience required to know that.

This said... Here is a little bit of advice in case if you use them anyway.

The Cataphract 3-D has a few good roles, one of them being a pop-tarting sniper (think pop-tarts in a toaster that auto-cooks. Pop-tarts go in, they pop when done, and since no one takes them out they go down to pop again and again).

The 1x is a good variant for experimenting with speed. Since you have mostly energy weapons most won't even assume you have an XL engine even when you start out-running catapults. The weapons are super well distributed about the body as well. It could be a direct support, or it could be a light hunter, or an anti-medium to an anti-dragon (my favorite use). Never attack assaults on your own. It's a death wish.

The 2x has a few great support roles but could be used for brawling. An arm-mounted missile launcher can be useful in the long range with twin LRM-5's. I wouldn't put much more than that in there as it takes weight, and with only 4 holes you'll just broadcast your location to snipers and counter-LRM ECM users. LRM-5's also shoot faster than most others and weigh the least. Some use streaks as an anti-light, but that is of no use against ECM users or large enemies. So if you brawl definitely go with standard SRMs. Torso mounted ballistic weapons are a bit limited, however. Only one arm energy weapon causes an issue as well when it comes to long range or super close brawls.

Almost everyone is against the use of the 4x. Lots of ballistic mounts are good, but the 255 engine limitation really hurts its potential. Always pack in some energy and missile support for close range emergencies. Great ranged support mech. Just don't get close as there's no way out when you do, and a 4x always falls at close range.

Muromets. Seems to be everyone's favorite hero mech. Equal parts energy and ballistic allows for some interesting possibilities. Personally I like the Pretty Baby more but I own them all. Muromets is definitely a close second. (Admittedly the PB has an awkward weapon assortment, but like any mech, played to its intended role I haven't had a better money maker since the LRM commando in closed beta; back when every time someone fired LRMs at my target to include myself sported me 2,500 cbills. Nothing like 1,000,000 cbills or more per match with only a 12,000 to 15,000 cbill repair and rearm.)

If you brawl, plan to have an escape route. If you don't have one, don't brawl or you will die. Brawl in urban areas. Stay away in open fields. Treat yourself like a proper Hunchback. Slip in, blast the crap out of them, slip out, come in behind them, wash rinse repeat. Your arms are expendable. Your torso is not. Don't be afraid to throw your arms up in the way. Be weary if your target is stationary; they're aiming for your easy to hit cockpit. MOVE and torso twist. Never attack from the front; you're in a Liao mech.

To overheat is to die. Don't do it; you won't survive the cool down.

If you're not the sort to pump all armor to the front, consider a turtle back manuever with equal armor. Hit someone hard, then whip your back toward them until ready to fire again with everything you have. Brawling should be a last resort, but as big as your torso is this might save your hide.

Don't rush LRMs. You don't stand a chance. There's nothing you can do.

AC-20 enemy? Torso twist. Catch it with an arm, not your gut. Chances are you'll lose a minimum of 50% of your fire power if you do.

This video is very recent with Cataphract 1x's. We have standard engines which is why the weapons are so small in tonnage and the heat is so hot. Standard 340s + speed tweak. We lure enemies back to their base and take them out.

Twin Cataphracts using Lordred's build. Famous for the Perfect Screenshot thread.

[Nehkrosis]

I (foolishly) went and sold my 4x. then bought it again. then sold it again.

i then bought it again.

its probably one of the best mechs i own, now that i know some what how to play and fit mechs.

Behold!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...abb9c415de3dad0

Its a large amount of damage per sec, and you will find yourself chewing through most things very quickly.
I have the weapons grouped so that my left mouse fires the left arm on chain, and ditto for the right, with my mouse wheel click being the 4 together.
tbh, i never chain fire them, and its only really handy if i have an arm around a corner.
you will never run out of ammo, and it cools well.

hope this works for you

EDIT; you also have alot of padding in the arms, for crits, so you dont often lose the ACs unless someone just tears the arm off

Edited by Nehkrosis, 07 July 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[NRP]

I chose these Cataphracts:
1X
3D
Ilya

I only kept the 3D and Ilya. The 1x just didn't work for me no matter what, so I can appreciate what the OP is saying here.

The 3D and Ilya are boss though.

[Takony]

Ordate, on 06 July 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

And just a note, not thrilled with advice slap on 2 ppcs and a gauss.

Just a not, the 4x don't remember exactly where I stuck the ammo but it isnt all sitting in cts.

Slap on 3 ppcs on the 3D, or any combination of er and regular ppcs, an xl340 4 jj rest dhs.
Well, it's not 2 ppc and a gauss, so it would be good, now wouldn't it?

On a less trolling note, CTF is a cruel mistress, especially in the current metagame.
In more balanced times, you can try 1x with 5 medlas and ac20, std engine, or the 3D with 2 uac 5 and med las. I sold the 4x and 2x after basics, and wouldn't touch them again with a stick. Jagers and other chassi made them totally obsolete.

[Ordate]

Kragg Relluf, on 07 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Ordate -

I have same problem with cataphracts. I do fine in jagers, catapults and assaults, and starting to get into mediums, but put me in a cataphract, and I die. I get back in one every once and again to see if I can get better with it.



I've often marvelled at the same thing. Pretty neat how different mechs are better for different people than others.

Ya it is funny how you can be great in some and suck at others. Almost all my other mechs I do great on. Never hit one that I have struggled with as much as this. And I do play some less then popular mechs (BJ anyone?).

Thanks for the replies. I hate the idea of going with the fotm in the current meta just for the simple fact that I really don't like peak sniping. But might just have to bite the bullet so I'm not constantly biting the bullet

Oh and hebdomas, they are totally different and can't be played nearly the same. 2 run at over 100kph with jjs, and the 3rd is a lrm carrier. I don't think it is even possible to try and play these like the QDs.

Edited by Ordate, 07 July 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Deathlike]

I disagree with Koniving with respect to the builds, but his overall analysis of the entire Cataphract class is correct.

The Right Torso on pretty much most of the builds (outside of the 4X) is a ballistic and energy slot. The issue with that is you can disable more than half of the mech's entire firepower pretty easily since the mech has wide side torsos. The arms on the mech are also pretty low, which is a major hindrance...

The RT is ideal for an AC20, but you must balance that by making the left side of the mech equally viable... especially in the case of the 2X. You can certainly put a Gauss Rifle in that section, but that makes an XL engine not ideal.

XL engines are only ideal on the 3D, since you can somewhat minimize of the impact of being side cored with JJs. You don't have that luxury with the other variants (well, minus the 4X). If you wish to use an XL engine, then you will have to invest in long range weaponry like Large Lasers or PPCs.

The side torso weapon hardpoints are ideal to put in your strongest weapon due to higher weapon placement... but the low arms can make things difficult... so you'll have some problems with the SRMs you put there on the 2X (even though Streaks are homing, they'll probably hit the wall) so you want to be fighting on level ground to be most effective.

The 1X can be made a "mini-Stalker", due to the spread of the hardpoints, and you can invest with the XL engine if you wish as long as you aren't forced to brawl. A slower STD engine can suffice if you need the extra tonnage for DHS... It will still have poor convergence because of the arms, so you need to factor/plan this in advance.

That's all I have... the mech is not for newbies (the only heavy that is even reasonably newbie friendly is the Catapult... but then there's the huge cockpit...)

Edited by Deathlike, 07 July 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[MadSavage]

The phract has a big CT, so you need to torso twist like a mother. To do that, you need to be fast and have a big engine to dash from cover to cover. The energy in the torso slots are fairly high for poking, so...this is what I came up with:

CTF-1X

Edited by MadSavage, 07 July 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[oldradagast]

I run a 1X with an ERPPC on the left arm, an AC20 in the right torso, 2 medium lasers (1 per torso slot) and the standard 280 it comes with - double heatsinks and Endo, of course.

It works pretty well. You can't cripple both big guns without battering both sides of the mech, and it can hit at a range or up close. It's a lousy sniper (like all of its kind) and doesn't have a zillion weapons set up for high convergence, but it is just a good, steady source of direct damage at all ranges.

[CaptOven]

With 4X I tried loads of build but settled on the Quad AC/5 build with the biggest XL engine and 9 tons of ammo. It doesn't ever heat up like multiple AC/2 and does better concentrated damage than 4 AC/2. It's the only Mech I have that doesn't have Medium Lasers as back up but with the XL engine I've never been weaponless.

I struggled with the 2X but in the end settled for 2 Large Pulse, 1Large Laser and 2 Streaks. Makes it good at doing quick damage compared to normal lasers. And is surprisingly heatefficient

My 3D has 4 Large Lasers and 20 Double Heat sinks and 4 JJ. Took me ages to get the hang of shooting at the same section for a second while jumping but that been taken away making the standard PPC Gauss loadouts better. But I still have a decent K/D using the JJ to spread the damage.

As has been mentioned Pharcts are surprisingly easy to kill and it means that without JJ using longer range weapons than average are a must to minimize return fire.

[Elizander]

Avoid fighting on hills and mounds because they are your worst enemy.

2 gauss rifles, 2 medium lasers and a 280xl on the Ilya works for me.