158 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Foxfire, on 07 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

A lot of people aren't sticking around for the current game, either.

As is, the game simply isn't fun... be it on the receiving or giving in. There is no fun or tactic in the current game and no encouragement to do anything but to min/max the maximum number of PPC's and gausses that you can squeeze onto a chassis.

Once it get to the point that LRM boats(catapults that can fit lasers) and light mechs are better off squeezing PPC's into the builds... that should be a major red flag that something is off.

I don't disagree with that, but sticking people with a repair bill basically because they were not playing the flavor of the month and thus died doesn't seem right either, IMHO... also, they get that repair bill if the match-maker messes up, if there's serious disconnect, like an assault mech dropping out, etc. Lots of ways to get socked with a bill that are not based on skill, and even in the best case, all it will do is punish the less-skilled players who are playing the "inferior" mechs.

The game needs balance, for sure, but I don't see Repair and Rearm as bringing it.

[AP514]

I totally agree.......PGi has lost their way...............they dropped the Econemy side and now have no way to get cash but by making the FLAVOR of the month the best MEK out there to get money.....this game is going down hill fast

[kilgor]

R&R is a necessary part of the balance to the game. PGI could have made it where you couldn't launch unless you were 100% repaired and rearmed much like how they don't let you launch unless you have 10 heat sinks. In BT, the reload cost and limited ammo amounts are what discouraged people from boating missiles or ballistics. Since ammo amounts and missile ranges were increased, this created an imbalance. Lack of the proper heat scale allows energy weapons to be boated, thus yet another imbalance.

[jakucha]

I'd be all for a multiplayer Mechwarrior game that was as simlike and unforgiving as it would be to be a Mech pilot in reality, but that simply won't work for a F2P game.

[Livewyr]

Moar PPCs!

[Kobold]

kilgor, on 07 July 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

R&R is a necessary part of the balance to the game.

No it isn't. Economics never balance a single instance of combat in isolation.

If there was a consumable that, when activated, instantly killed every enemy in the game, it wouldn't matter how much it cost. Similarly, if there was a weapon that weighed as much as an AC20, did damage like a flamer, and generated the heat of an ER PPC, it doesn't matter if you made it free to repair. It would still be terrible, and you would be pissed any time one of your teammates used one.

Economics is not a form of gameplay balancing. Period. Ever.

[Victor Morson]

As said, if you do this, you just raise the divide between the haves and have nots. It's bad for the little guy, big time.

[Sephlock]

Purlana, on 07 July 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

It would make PPC / Gauss boats even better. Who do you think R&R really hurts? That's right, the brawlers... If you get cored outright you have a small repair bill, but if you try to torso twist and survive for as long as possible your bill gets larger. Also SRM and LRM ammo was very expensive. Using SRM currently would be like firing C-bills at the enemy.

Does anyone else remember the days when firing LRMs was like lobbing gold bricks into the air, and you had to pay that horrendous fee every time you lost an XL engine?

jakucha, on 07 July 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'd be all for a multiplayer Mechwarrior game that was as simlike and unforgiving as it would be to be a Mech pilot in reality, but that simply won't work for a F2P game.

Then almost no one would actually be able to pilot a mech. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dispossessed

[jakucha]

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

Then almost no one would actually be able to pilot a mech. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dispossessed

That would be pretty hilarious. If you lose your Mechs you're relegated to anti-mech infantry battalions, I'd pay to see that in-game.

Edited by jakucha, 07 July 2013 - 11:50 PM.

[Ralgas]

All it would do is raise the instance of d/c's, abuse, elitism, coward tactics (try and get an assault out there to face a mech or 2 when he has to pay for his repair costs, hill humpers HOOO!!!!!) 4 mans running a spotter and 3 lrm boats or light cap teams, and other foolery that comes with people trying to avoid the mechanic.

Btw how would you propose someone gets c-bills when they don't have enough to repair a mech to launch?

Edit: oh and griefer teams that will deliberately tear mechs apart as much as possible to cost the owners extra

Edited by Ralgas, 07 July 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[Inkarnus]

Ralgas, on 07 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

All it would do is raise the instance of d/c's

Dc/s no money? most Dcs now are anyway for the Cadettbonuses

Ralgas, on 07 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

try and get an assault out there to face a mech or 2 when he has to pay for his repair costs, hill humpers HOOO!!!!

Why should of all an assault fight alone somebody? Its a teamgame.
Back then ppl defended there assaults and not let em die.
They told them jackasses who standed behind what they did wrong
in there 100t killing machines and most ppl pulled there weight as an
assault cuz they WANTET to win for the extra money.

Dont see anything of that now just stupid players dieing over and over
without learning a thing
You could argue its racism too that bad players do lesser damage
and get lesser income then they got back in RandR when loosing.
thats evil in my eyes but seems most ppl acceptet that lol.
All acceptet that they got lesser Bang for the Buck with changing
over RandR income they get now alot less except you make
some ubergames in a Hero mech now.

Ralgas, on 07 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

4 mans running a spotter and 3 lrm boats or light cap teams, and other foolery that comes with people trying to avoid the mechanic

Lrms arent cheap even as non artemis if you boatet them
they are just cheap if u get 2tons of ammo and some ballistics to keep it cheap
and they are far from the lrmarmageddon from back than.
lights meds can swarm that lrm cluster ez!
Since MM is more consistent of lights meds(as opposed of now where u see all assaults wich get killed by there counter LRMs)

Ralgas, on 07 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Btw how would you propose someone gets c-bills when they don't have enough to repair a mech to launch?

You did know you lose only money when running alot of stuff thats lostech....
if you had half a brain you could build an efficent non overloaded lostech mech
wich still nettet you enough profits.
The other point would be getting a 4man going in a teamgame since teamwork is OP™.

btw thats what the TRIAL mechs were for
to help players to get cash
they had no AMMO/Repair Cost and halved income
but you didnt needed to pay a dime to RandR em.

if you really got totally out of board and were just driving Lostech in a glass case
ppl did complaining about RandR as they were driving mostly
LRM Boats Streak cats Assaults and mechs stuffed full with Lostech
see were there fault is ? they dont adapt and scream thats unfair?

Instead of building a normal loadout a bit better then Stockmechs
they build Atlases with XL gaus endo artemis lrms large lasers instead
and QQed too expensive.
Instead of using an Atlas with AC20 some lrms and medlasers
to come out if they die cheap or have low maintenance costs too if they win
playing an assault back then didnt mean you were skilled
it meant you understanded the mechanics!

Ralgas, on 07 July 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Edit: oh and griefer teams that will deliberately tear mechs apart as much as possible to cost the owners extra

Now better with that griefer teams? its no valid point

Edited by Inkarnus, 08 July 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

jakucha, on 07 July 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'd be all for a multiplayer Mechwarrior game that was as simlike and unforgiving as it would be to be a Mech pilot in reality, but that simply won't work for a F2P game.

If I was a real world mercenary, I would not take a job that puts me in a fight against another group of enemies that have the same skill level as my team and similar equipment.
That would be a fair fight. Fair fights are for games, but not for war, nor a simulation of war.

If you have a choice whether to fight or not to fight, you shouldn't fight at odds of 50:50. The odds must be in your favor.

[Nimura Nekogami]

No.

There is nothing more frustrating than to farm C-Bills........

This isnt WoT. (and lets hope it will never be like this piece of....)
In this game are no Tiers.

You cold get matched against fully eqiupt Mechs in a Trail-Mech. I dont think its a good idia to force a player to run 20x Trail games to afford the risk using an owned Mech.

It is less fun......and i want a funny game i could enjoy.
I dont want a game to become "work". o.O

Balancing is not related to R&R costs.
(i think of my atlas in closed Beta. first game with it.....got killed.....needed to farm hours for the secund game.....)
You would hurt the unexperienced in this game and adding a timesink for the average PUG player.

Sorry.....but you should think about this opinion in more than one way.
(it isnt personal......but i hate R&R in MMOs. This is not a Singleplayer game! )

[JimboFBX]

right now R&R is abstracted. If you win you get salvage plus the win bonus.

I would like to see a mech commander type game or mode where you basically are part of a unit with a finite amount of resources and money and your group takes contract jobs like in MW2:Mercenaries. Then you basically only hold on to a mech for one or two games before its blown to bits and you have to buy another one or recover one from salvage. In this mode you'd play significantly less games.

That kind of game mode, however, wouldn't make sense with the current usage of MC. It would only make sense if you paid MC to participate or something. It would have to be entirely separate. What's missing from this game is the excitement and adrenaline of playing a game that has real meaning and consequences. That's why I suggested a high risk option where there's a pot of money you get for participating but you could lose your mech or lose money. You would play the same instant action games as you do now but people wouldn't know who was playing with this enabled.

[Inkarnus]

Nimura Nekogami, on 08 July 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

There is nothing more frustrating than to farm C-Bills........

It is less fun......and i want a funny game i could enjoy.
I dont want a game to become "work". o.O

(i think of my atlas in closed Beta. first game with it.....got killed.....needed to farm hours for the secund game.....)

so playing the game for you is un fun ?

probably you rushed for that atlas and then found out it was no i win button?
seems more like this since so much ******* ppl did that....

Nimura Nekogami, on 08 July 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

You cold get matched against fully eqiupt Mechs in a Trail-Mech.

You could but still you had a chance since they didnt had that much more
mostly endo and std heatsinks.
Now its just a laughable slap in your face if you dare driving a stockmech/trial!

Nimura Nekogami, on 08 July 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

I dont think its a good idea to force a player to run 20x Trail games to afford the risk using an owned Mech.

Yeah if you rushed that Atlas like most ppl did you deserved it instead of taking
a med or light to get the hang of things and build up a base!

Nimura Nekogami, on 08 July 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Balancing is not related to R&R costs.

so just by saying that you are right?

Nimura Nekogami, on 08 July 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

You would hurt the unexperienced in this game and adding a timesink for the average PUG player.

the unixperienced have trial mechs (steering wheels, no losses)
to figure out how the game works, its a sim.

But just trying to ez mode the game without learning didnt work back then
but now does wich is sad
Slap PPC on chassi Pro player born!

[SJ SCP Wolf]

DarkJaguar, on 07 July 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

This is a very small part of the problem. Canon-wise, sure Gauss and PPCs are expensive, but that should have very little to do as far as balancing them goes. To solve the balance issues, you need to evaluate the disease, not treat the symptoms. I feel that I have done just that in this thread.

http://mwomercs.com/...x-balance/]this

Burst fire ACs are not the way to go, plus they are redundant then to UACs.Autocannons are one shot for that caliber damage. What are you going to do with UAC 20? The damage would be pissed all over. The ammo per ton would be stupid. Not to mention you start infringing on the chances of the RAC being added later since it won't be as unique.

Don't take offense but you didn't solve anything, you just created a whole new mess.

[Nimura Nekogami]

Did you ignore the fact that some of us got some equiped Mechs? o.0

And i didnt rush the Atlas back than.....wasnt founder and didnt got premium in close Beta (only use paysafe payment ^^)
I played mostly lights......
I farmed with COM, RVN, JNR.......and the hunchis. XD
(First time playing an Atlas was....slow. )

I would not run Trails if i could use my own maxed (to my likings) Mechs. So what would do R&R to me?
It would take more time to farm for a new Mech.
(and it could be more frustrating to get killed by "cheese" if you know.......you earned a negativ amount of cash. ^^ )

Thats it.

There is no "back to the golden R&R Age" .
Nobody with a choice would go with Trails. It would only hurt new gamers.

(and one of my mates got after his Cadett Time an K2.......because he liked it.He wasnt complaining about heavies or assaults, nor cheese.....the only problem he got was a bad FPS count. xD (and he was glad that there is no R&R so he could lern his own Mech without being punnisched for doing it))

I could enjoy a light Mech....but not everyone. (reminds me....i want collision back )

Again.....i dont want to insult you. I just dont think that this is more than slowing the game. Thats all.
(......but it seems you dont like my point of view. o.o)

I prefer such things as......reworking the scout role for example....or adding more mechanics than just blowing each other to bits/ capping .

[627]

R&R was a harsh tax, nothing more.

We had a "free" player with us, piloting an awesome. In the time we (founder with free premium) bought our third or fourth mech, he was able to buy his first one (trial awesome > owned awesome). After that, the real grind started for him, just a new ppc costed half a day if we didn't win fast.

And it affected gameplay, but not the way you'll like. That player stayed back most of the time trying to not get any damage. That was no fun.
R&R was driving the "meta" to run away and hide when you were 2 mechs down.

And the builds? Diversity? No. XL was a nogo, so where ballistics (those sucked anyway) and missiles were only 75% filled because no one paid that rearm. In fact, when they dropped it, we saw plenty of new builds and variety.

As much as i like the idea of repair, the need to think about your aproach on the 'field, that mechanic was broken. It favored heavily the founders/payers and it was no no no fun for free players. Take that with the lack of matchmaking and you know where the term "roflstomp" has its origin.

Edited by 627, 08 July 2013 - 02:12 AM.

[jakucha]

The only aspect I could see an R&R mechanic being used somewhat usefully is enabling factions and merc units to pay the R&R fees. It would make it similar to canon where unaffiliated solo mechwarrior pilots are rare because they'd have to be very good (or lucky I suppose). But then there really wouldn't be a point to play lonewolf other than to show how useful you are on your own.

Edited by jakucha, 08 July 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[Sudden Reversal]

Every naysayer against R&R references how it was poorly done before, but any potential implementation in the future would not have those failings or loopholes.

Some have already been closed in fact. Disconnects no longer gain XP or C-Bills for instance.

There wouldn't be any 75% gratis. Repair and Rearm fully or don't take the chassis, play another in your garage.

Losing a game should not result in a c-bill loss, just a minimal gain for being roflstomped. Running an expensive build would eat into your PROFITS not result in a LOSS.

One of a laser builds advantage is that of not requiring ammo. That is negated in the current meta. Tell me the last time you ran out of ammo of any consequence? Games over 9 times out of 10 way before that will happen.

When R&R was ripped out of the game so was a large chunk of the fun for me. Community Warfare may inject it back, but as it stands I don't give a fig about the outcome, nor the damage sustained on my Mech. Just run in, lick as many mechs as you can then drop again.

These things are\should be expensive to run, like a medieval knight with armour and warhorse - they took some serious coin to upkeep and being a Mechwarrior was a badge of distinction. Now they are a dime a dozen.

The main problem with R&R was not R&R itself but the poor implementation and PGI inability and lack of intestinal fortitude to find a system that would work and work well. As we have seen multitudinous times in MWO to date, bad decisions are being made (ECM\3rd person\consumables) without consideration for the gameplay, but based on other outside influences.