158 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

OneEyed Jack, on 08 July 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

I tend to agree. Despite all the contradictory claims, RnR is proven to create a better spread of weight classes by the simple, observable fact that, when it was in, it did. It also reduced the usage of the more expensive weapons and upgrades. I understand the reasons it was removed, but I don't entirely agree that complete removal of RnR was the best decision, nor that it has had a positive effect on the game.

That said, the word is parity. Parody means something entirely different, but at least it casts your entire post in an amusing light.

And we also had AFK farmers, suicide trial mech farmers, people powering off in corners instead of trying turn the tide of battle, people with unrepaired mechs fighting alongside your mechs, Premium + Hero/Founder mech mech rewards making the R&R cost neglible or at least multiplying the profits compared to a non-Premium-non-hero players by a significant factor (and not just 50-80 %)...

Rose-Colored Classes? Perception Filter? Some kind of vision inhibition is at work here.


If you want to see more variety on the field and want to be really, really lazy about it, just have the match-maker force every team to bring 2 of each mech class. Waiting 10 minutes in the matchmaker queue still sounds like more fun then having to deal with those suicide farmers and trial mechs again.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 July 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[blinkin]

i shall don my fire proof suit and join the battle.

will RR fix every problem ever? unlikely, BUT i do know that AS SOON AS IT WAS GONE the field IMMEDIATELY flooded with splat cats and whatever flavor of the month builds there were along with an endless tide of assault mechs. in the days of repair and rearm the field was fairly well balanced with all of the mech classes being represented in roughly equal numbers.

since repair and rearm was removed medium mechs have almost entirely disappeared along with most heavies that aren't prone to cheese builds. running an XL engine on many mechs is a no brainer because most of the penalty is gone. is there ever a reason not to use endosteel if you have the crit slots?

the game has been carved down to 2 extremes: you use light mechs if you want to go fast and you use assault mechs if you want more firepower, with only a few exceptions for ballistic weapon heavy mechs.

just take a look at the forums. what are the vast majority of forums topics about? people complaining that A. some flavor of assault mech is OP B. people complaining that light mechs are OP. this is all because there is no reason to play any of the middle of the road balanced mechs that don't cater to some min/max play style.

and like i have said before new players get thoroughly shafted by people who have better equipment ONLY because they have been around longer and completed the grind. new players trapped in trial mechs are forced to play against min/maxed mechs that will blow any trial mech apart. it's like a samurai facing down a guy with a shotgun, no matter how amazing the samurai is, as long as the guy with the shotgun generally knows which direction to point at the enemy and how to pull the trigger, then the guy with the shotgun is going to win the majority of the time.

[DogmeatX]

I'll go with the above as well. Since the removal I've had no thought at all about upgrading all mechs to maximum spec where possible since cost/risk is a non issue now.

Artemis? DHS? Endo? Ferro? Non of that carries any risk to it now and it's all about getting optimal/max loadout with no real penalty.

Secondly whereas before I'd not take my Atlas out every time now it's also a non issue with no risk involved. My hunchback has gathered dust and my 3L only gets used when I have someone to run around with on voice chat. I sold my jenners (mastered all of these by the way)

Otherwise there's just no point taking anything medium/light anymore. I don't even see the point in buying any of those mechs anymore.

The old system I don't think anyone will say it was ideal, but the idea was there and just needs various ways to make it work better (to deal with issues mentioned above for example)

Or have it as in by default for CW/some major game mode and have the existing team deathmatch as pure "deathmatch only" mode which doesn't affect anything.

[Inkarnus]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 July 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

And we also had AFK farmers, suicide trial mech farmers, people powering off in corners instead of trying turn the tide of battle,

and now we didnt?
now we have too AFK farmers (wich will be banned by pgi)
now we have too suicide trial mech farmers but with all mechs running straight into the enemy
now we have too people powering off in corners instead of trying turn the tide of battle k/D anybody?
umm broken argument stravag people with unrepaired mechs fighting alongside your mechs, not valid since it was a bug


Premium Founder stuff yes but that can be tweaked to marginally impact

MustrumRidcully, on 08 July 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

If you want to see more variety on the field and want to be really, really lazy about it, just have the match-maker force every team ...

Ahahah you said to force ppl wich is bad they should do it of free will not because they are forced by the MM!!



btw i like your narrowmindness and your clubbing(always referring to the broken mechanics and not intended ones) on RandR just cuz you dont like the idea of RandR.


btw the poster above nails it pretty well it wasnt a perfekt system but it could have been made to it.
Creating diversity and fun for alot more ppl then the so called elite ppc gaus highlander stalker tweeps

Edited by Inkarnus, 09 July 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Inkarnus, on 09 July 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

and now we didnt?
now we have too AFK farmers (wich will be banned by pgi)
now we have too suicide trial mech farmers but with all mechs running straight into the enemy
now we have too people powering off in corners instead of trying turn the tide of battle k/D anybody?
umm broken argument stravag people with unrepaired mechs fighting alongside your mechs, not valid since it was a bug

We have a lot less of this then we had with R&R.

I think you'll find a lot of people - even competitive minded players - that don't really care much about K/D, but you will find most players wanting to play with the kind of mechs he enjoys most. And R&R stands in the way of that. There was a lot more of this behavior around then it is now.

Quote

Premium Founder stuff yes but that can be tweaked to marginally impact

Show me how. And if it has marginal impact, do you think this is something PGI would want from Premium and Hero mech bonuses? How does that affect their bottom line?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 July 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Modo44]

Please remember that this is not a single player game. Half of the player base is losing more than winning on a regular basis. Realistic repair and rearm would directly discourage half of PGI's customers. Mitigating that issue by exceptions, bonuses, etc. would make repair and rearm irrelevant. Instead of trying to fix an unfixable system, PGI removed it. Good riddance. Sure, it would be a cool thing, but only for a single player campaign add-on.

Edited by Modo44, 09 July 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Inkarnus]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 July 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

We have a lot less of this then we had with R&R.

We have but its more of getting 0 Cbills and not cuz of RandR wich you would now still get 0Cbills
but Repair and Restock cost on top!

MustrumRidcully, on 09 July 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

I think you'll find a lot of people - even competitive minded players - that don't really care much about K/D, but you will find most players wanting to play with the kind of mechs he enjoys most. And R&R stands in the way of that. There was a lot more of this behavior around then it is now.

here i got you "most players wanting to play with the kind of mechs he enjoys most"
90% of the player base dont like the freedom to choose Sniper meta go BIG or go Home PPC edition ™.
I for one would love to have a light medium meta with spread in heavys and some assaults.
Since its meant to be that and not an Assault Royal Starleage Regiment on every battlefield!
This would lead to more fun and more diversity and doesnt RESTRICTS you in taking Assault mechs if you play by the rules and not overload the atlas till it is its own weapons dealer.

[xengk]

Foxfire, on 07 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Honestly, the biggest complaint about R&R was that it punished assaults more.. if they adjusted it to be equipment based and not armor based, then that would still allow players to play the class they wanted to withut overly penalizing those who run assaults... and being equipment based, they would benefit those who build 'standard' mechs more than those who build 'OMG' 6 PPC stalkers more.

Combine this with buffs to brawling weapons(srm's and the such to make them viable against ERPPC builds) and suddenly you find things a bit more balanced since ERPPC builds can no longer roflestomp brawler builds.

What do you think about this idea?
[Suggestion] Permanent Equipment Destruction

The old R&R was very punishing because player are billed by amour points.
The more amour you lost the higher the bill, also that XL-engine that cost a bomb every time you got cored.

Instead, based the new R&R on equipments.
Lost a side torso with 3 PPCs? You have to replace them or field some medium laser while you work to restock.
LRM ammo gets free refill unless it was an ammo explosion, makes people really worry about crit seeking weapon.

Edited by xengk, 09 July 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Inkarnus, on 09 July 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

We have but its more of getting 0 Cbills and not cuz of RandR wich you would now still get 0Cbills
but Repair and Restock cost on top!



here i got you "most players wanting to play with the kind of mechs he enjoys most"
90% of the player base dont like the freedom to choose Sniper meta go BIG or go Home PPC edition ™.
I for one would love to have a light medium meta with spread in heavys and some assaults.
Since its meant to be that and not an Assault Royal Starleage Regiment on every battlefield!
This would lead to more fun and more diversity and doesnt RESTRICTS you in taking Assault mechs if you play by the rules and not overload the atlas till it is its own weapons dealer.

No, players don't like the current meta, but exchanging it for another meta they don't like is not progress.

Fix convergence + group fire. Then you have the fundamental balance problem of boating in M:WO addressed. That doesn'T make all the weapon stats fine, or the heat system good. But it's a start.

Don't try to balance it by R&R. Especially notbecause R&R does not magically affect the most powerful builds the most.
That's just wishful thinking. It only does that if you have identified the most powerful items, and make them cost more from an R&R perspective, and put the cost so high that it actually creates meaningful choices. And even then it's questionable to work, because effective mechs tend to die less than ineffective mechs. And it still has all kinds of other gameplay implications you need to deal with.

But if you're smart enough to create a completely new subsystem to balance weapons and not wreck a lot of other things in the process, why not use your superior intellect to balance weapons with the existing systems?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 July 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Ngamok]

FupDup, on 07 July 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Players will always use loadouts that are more likely to make them win. Making those loadouts cost more does nothing to change the fact that they will still win more often.

Exactly. What will happen is everyone would still use those loadouts more and people who wouldn't use them won't bring out builds that they would like to try because they will either have to find cover all over the place from PPC / Gauss fire or LRM volleys trying to get their MLs or SLs or pulse variants to do damage at closer range.

[oldradagast]

What really bugs me about all this is that it seems the goal is to FORCE people to play a wide variety of weight classes (via high bills, punishing people for losing, etc.) vs. changing the game to make people WANT to play a wide variety of weight classes.

Repair and Rearm will NOT change the fact that high-alpha Assaults are what wins. All it will do is give you a nasty bill for playing anything else and drive new players away.

[blinkin]

oldradagast, on 09 July 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

What really bugs me about all this is that it seems the goal is to FORCE people to play a wide variety of weight classes (via high bills, punishing people for losing, etc.) vs. changing the game to make people WANT to play a wide variety of weight classes.

Repair and Rearm will NOT change the fact that high-alpha Assaults are what wins. All it will do is give you a nasty bill for playing anything else and drive new players away.

this is not a new or bad concept. many games do this regularly to good effect.

people like grenades and think they are fun in games but most FPS games heavily limit the grenades you get. assault mechs are powerful weapons and should be limited.

(speaking old versions of the games before EA burned the franchise to the ground) how many of the battlefield games let players take out as many tanks as they wanted? answer: none of them. many players found the tanks to be much more fun than being on foot, but that limitation kept the game from becoming an early crappy version of world of tanks.

half life 2 is generally considered to be a good game, but how likely are you to make it through the game by ONLY using your favorite gun? answer: not far at all because you cannot maintain enough ammo to make most of the guns viable for very long besides the gravity gun and the crowbar which both tend to be very situational.

just about any RTS will have some kind of limit, cost, or both for using any unit.


to have cost benefit analysis you need to have some sort of noticeable cost. repair and rearm was a cost, just like heat, ammo, tonnage, and crit space. <-your argument is invalid unless you believe all of those things should be removed as well.

repair and rearm will get rid of most of the unwashed masses that can't earn enough to properly maintain these expensive alpha boats. will it fix every problem that has ever appeared in the game? answer: the moron who came up with that litmus test for changes needs to be beaten over the head until they are a functional member of society. now the real question. will it help? yes i think it will help balance the game more, because i saw what happened as soon as it was removed.

[Purlana]

blinkin, on 09 July 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

this is not a new or bad concept. many games do this regularly to good effect.

people like grenades and think they are fun in games but most FPS games heavily limit the grenades you get. assault mechs are powerful weapons and should be limited.

R&R would be more like this. If you buy premium time and heros you get to use grenades. All you other losers can't have grenades or can use grenades but only half as many as people with cash, enjoy!

Edited by Purlana, 09 July 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Tezcatli]

The hardcore players scoff at your repair and rearm costs! They can afford it. I've heard people even scoff at the extra garage slots you get from the Phoenix project because they have so many already.

So really you'd just cause a greater disparity between new players, established players, and hardcore players. Granted PPCs and Gausses should be expensive to maintain. But that would just take it out of the hands of some people. While the hardcore players blow them apart.

EDIT: Though what would be cool. If with the coming CW. They made it so different factions give different cost bonuses. If you're part of a faction they should foot the repair bill of course. But they won't foot the bill to purchase weapons for a custom load out.

Mercs could get a cost reduction to weapons and probably greater salvage rights from matches. While faction players get less.

Okay. I went off topic. But we can dream... ::Gazes off at the stars::

Edited by Tezcatli, 09 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Sporklift]

Has anyone ever considered that the removal of R&R may have delayed Community Warfare? Since PGI never tells anyone nothin' I'll have to theorycraft.

How do you make joining a in game faction have value over just being a lone wolf? Well increased C-bill gain, which alone might be suitable if a little meh...but how about having the Faction you join help pay for R&R in the form of a faction discount? While your faction might give you occasional bonuses, the House R&R discount of 25-35% would always be there. It would make joining one of the Houses advantageous as it means steadier C-bills.
Joining a Merc Corp might have had a smaller or no R&R discount. Much of their gains would be based off of the ever changing contracts. Sometimes the contracts would have an R&R discount, it might even exceed that of a House unit's. It could cover all ammo costs and none of the repair costs for the duration of 10 drops. Bonuses for completion might fluxuate greatly based off of that discount.

So when PGI decided to can R&R because of player backlash. They probably had to look at CW and say "well this won't work anymore".

Now look at that "creative" 6xSSRM2 A1 Streaksauce build. Complete with 10 tons of super expensive SSRM ammo, just because. Or that 3L resplendent with 3xSSRM2 and ECM which was the terror of the Pre-HSR game, they would actually form a wall when you hit a high enough Elo. Anyone remember the LRMpocalypse? Refilling LRMs used to be quite expensive if you overdid it.

I'm not saying there is a direct causal relationship. I'm just saying its removal might have contributed to the current "situation" more then people might realize.

[Purlana]

Sporklift, on 09 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Has anyone ever considered that the removal of R&R may have delayed Community Warfare? Since PGI never tells anyone nothin' I'll have to theorycraft.

How do you make joining a in game faction have value over just being a lone wolf? Well increased C-bill gain, which alone might be suitable if a little meh...but how about having the Faction you join help pay for R&R in the form of a faction discount? While your faction might give you occasional bonuses, the House R&R discount of 25-35% would always be there. It would make joining one of the Houses advantageous as it means steadier C-bills.
Joining a Merc Corp might have had a smaller or no R&R discount. Much of their gains would be based off of the ever changing contracts. Sometimes the contracts would have an R&R discount, it might even exceed that of a House unit's. It could cover all ammo costs and none of the repair costs for the duration of 10 drops. Bonuses for completion might fluxuate greatly based off of that discount.

So when PGI decided to can R&R because of player backlash. They probably had to look at CW and say "well this won't work anymore".

Now look at that "creative" 6xSSRM2 A1 Streaksauce build. Complete with 10 tons of super expensive SSRM ammo, just because. Or that 3L resplendent with 3xSSRM2 and ECM which was the terror of the Pre-HSR game, they would actually form a wall when you hit a high enough Elo. Anyone remember the LRMpocalypse? Refilling LRMs used to be quite expensive if you overdid it.

I'm not saying there is a direct causal relationship. I'm just saying its removal might have contributed to the current "situation" more then people might realize.

If that's all community warfare was supposed to be, then it looks like we are not missing out on anything special...

Edited by Purlana, 09 July 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Sporklift, on 09 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Or that 3L resplendent with 3xSSRM2 and ECM which was the terror of the Pre-HSR game, they would actually form a wall when you hit a high enough Elo.

The 3L only has 2 missile hardpoints.

[Skydrive]

FupDup, on 09 July 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

The 3L only has 2 missile hardpoints.

Maybe he means the Commando 2D?

[stjobe]

Skydrive, on 09 July 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Maybe he means the Commando 2D?

The 2D was never "the terror of the pre-HSR game", the 3L was. He just made a mistake.

[blinkin]

Purlana, on 09 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

R&R would be more like this. If you buy premium time and heros you get to use grenades. All you other losers can't have grenades or can use grenades but only half as many as people with cash, enjoy!

yup there will be some that will do this, but most won't because they can accomplish the same thing by using a cheaper mech. everybody panics and screams P2W!, but what if the pay to win environment is better over all than the current system. there might be a few that dump money into the game so they can be unskilled in their assault mech and in the mean time there will also be many more who actually utilize medium mechs and don't ALWAYS immediately grab the closest cheese builds.

Tezcatli, on 09 July 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

The hardcore players scoff at your repair and rearm costs! They can afford it. I've heard people even scoff at the extra garage slots you get from the Phoenix project because they have so many already.

So really you'd just cause a greater disparity between new players, established players, and hardcore players. Granted PPCs and Gausses should be expensive to maintain. But that would just take it out of the hands of some people. While the hardcore players blow them apart.

no this would reduce the disparity between new players and established players, hardcore players gain nothing from this and if their cbills are steadily siphoned away eventually the ones who just play a lot will be separated from those that actually have skill. at some point we should pay at least a little attention to how accessible this game is to new players or it will die. we need some sort of middle class to allow for upward mobility for the new players. right now the community is far too top heavy.