256 replies to this topic

[Throat Punch]

I like turtles.

[krash27]

Purlana, on 08 July 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

With drop lobbies you can implement any restriction you can think of without creating 50 different Qs for everyone. Want to have a 1v1 battle? Drop lobby! Want a clan VS IS match? Drop lobby! Lights only? Drop lobby! New players only? Drop lobby! A drop lobby is 1000 times better then making solo Qs....

I think what he is getting at is there are teams out there who will join casual/pug lobbies to roflstomp and pad stats.

[Radbane]

Disapirro, on 07 July 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Not saying I can't, just asking for the option to play in a queue with like minded players. Not sure why this bothers you.

I believe the nay sayers enjoy to stomp the solos with their premades VOIP teams. That's it. A proof of that is what happened with 8-mans when they split queues to 8 and 4+solo options. First there was a big "Nay, this is a team game, get on TS, stop whining", but then most split up into the 4-mans to still be able to stomp the solos. Sad actually.

I support OP

[Taemien]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Game balance is about balancing the game to provide a fun experience, in order to sell the game to more people. This is a business. I'd recommend against trying to run a business your way.

A business has to pick a set group to focus on. You can't please everyone. MWO cannot ever appease single players. It wouldn't make sense for it to. You all said the problem is because players want to play MechWarrior in single player, but tough it out here. I honestly believe they should open steam sort by single player, and pick one of those thousands of games rather than try to change this one.

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Correction. What you're saying is that you want to keep those people playing against you at a disadvantage if they want to play the game at all. You're saying you absolutely do NOT want those people to continue playing the game unless they either A) play the way you do or B ) surrender an advantage to you. You're strongly against them playing the game how they want to play. The fundamental issue is that, again, this is an entertainment service. The majority will migrate to C), which is quit and play a game that's going to cater to what they enjoy in the same way that MWO is catering to what you enjoy. What you are really saying is that you don't want PGI to do anything, even if it doesn't affect your gameplay directly, to attract the money of the majority of people who play games.

Or more to the point what you're saying is that you've put forward effort to get an advantage and you don't want PGI to do anything that devalues that advantage. Removing some pugs from the queue is only going to do one thing - make gameplay in the team queue more challenging. That's it. Those people spending money with PGI to play the game how they want are not going to directly affect you, so again - what's the issue?

I'd say I spend a lot more effort getting my friends together for a game of football in the park than you do getting a group of 8 together for 8mans yet I suspect I spend a lot more time in the spring and fall (summer is too damn hot) playing football or at least frisbee or biking than most teams on MWO spend playing 8mans.

The problem, thus, is that team players are too lazy?

Seriously Taemien. Look at what you're arguing. I would rarely play in a solo queue - only when doing things like leveling a Dragon or Quickdraw or, well, any medium so I'm not gimping other peoples Elo by the loud sucking noise I make in a Highlander sized extra slow Jenner Quickdraw. I like pugging with teams, you just stick with the group. Yet I still realize that a solo queue would attract and retain more people to the game, which should be the long term goal. Otherwise all the other talk of Community Warfare is moot.

What you're really saying is that you have invested effort in having an advantage over other players and it bugs you that they might find a way to get out of that advantage - so much so that you're willing to cut your nose off to spite your face and tell them to quit.

That's terrible logic.

That all would only be true if I only played in a 4 man group. Most of the time is duo or solo. So I'm not trying to surrender any advantage, I have no advantage to surrender. In fact I am in the same boat as the PUGs, but I understand what a PUG is and what it means to PUG.

I am the lazy one because I don't put in effort to get a 4 man or 8 man going. I am lazy because I am not on the Outreach or one of the House TS's. I am lazy because I have yet to join a unit. Thats my problem and I don't expect PGI to fix it.

Yes I do run in 3s and 4s sometimes, but those are rare, it depends on who's on and what everyone wishes to do. But most of the time like I said it is solo or duo. I am not expecting anyone to play how I do, because guess what, you all already are. I am saying to stop complaining about losing when you can change why you lose.

My days of running with a unit were over a decade ago, I haven't really had time to participate in them since. So I think you can get it out of your head that I am trying to get people to play a certain why. I don't care how people play. I just don't care to hear about how someone keeps running into a wall instead of going around it or over it.

[MischiefSC]

Taemien, on 10 July 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

A business has to pick a set group to focus on. You can't please everyone. MWO cannot ever appease single players. It wouldn't make sense for it to. You all said the problem is because players want to play MechWarrior in single player, but tough it out here. I honestly believe they should open steam sort by single player, and pick one of those thousands of games rather than try to change this one.





That all would only be true if I only played in a 4 man group. Most of the time is duo or solo. So I'm not trying to surrender any advantage, I have no advantage to surrender. In fact I am in the same boat as the PUGs, but I understand what a PUG is and what it means to PUG.

I am the lazy one because I don't put in effort to get a 4 man or 8 man going. I am lazy because I am not on the Outreach or one of the House TS's. I am lazy because I have yet to join a unit. Thats my problem and I don't expect PGI to fix it.

Yes I do run in 3s and 4s sometimes, but those are rare, it depends on who's on and what everyone wishes to do. But most of the time like I said it is solo or duo. I am not expecting anyone to play how I do, because guess what, you all already are. I am saying to stop complaining about losing when you can change why you lose.

My days of running with a unit were over a decade ago, I haven't really had time to participate in them since. So I think you can get it out of your head that I am trying to get people to play a certain why. I don't care how people play. I just don't care to hear about how someone keeps running into a wall instead of going around it or over it.

Here's the thing though - as a business, PGI wants to make money. They bought the license to Mechwarrior/Battletech which is a game that has historically had a strong singleplayer offering. People want to play it, why not take their money?

The fundamental truth of sales is that it's about perception and not function. Betamax? Better product. There's a long list like that. Training grounds are not a solution unless the other mechs are animated by AIs.

You've got to understand that MWO isn't a product, it's an entertainment service. In essence people play for free because they're there to be shot by the people who pay. We are the content of the game. This means it has to support a huge population of players to reap the financial benefits that that 2-15% who pay (which is about the average) any significant amount of money.

Catering to groups is a great idea for MWO. The franchise works well with it, the game model works well with it. CW is a great idea. The problem is that as you certainly know even in groups everyone doesn't want to have to bring their 'A' game all the time every time they play. A ton of people would rather not bring it at all or simply want to test themselves and would be happiest never dealing with other people. In matches with 16 people it's generally at most 2 or 3 who even use chat for a 'GL HF'.

Call it the 'casual' queue. Call it whatever you want but a solo queue is going to provide a lot of draw and entertainment for when people burn out on steady competitive play. There's no drawback to it. Trying to say that it's asking for special consideration is irrational - it's an entertainment service as a product. That's the whole point of it, people participate (and ideally pay) for steady entertainment.

So, again. What's the legitimate business drawback to having a solo queue? What and who is it hurting, other than group people who want to play against people they have an advantage over? Other than that, who's losing in that concept? Where is the legitimate, functional business negative?

[Tsig]

Sure, let's put a solo queue into the game. That'll fix the problem. And then, as soon as some solo-queue PuGs figure out they're on the same team and in the same Teamspeak, they'll get in the same channel and roflstomp the rest of the PuGs.

Where will it end?

[MischiefSC]

Tsig, on 10 July 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Sure, let's put a solo queue into the game. That'll fix the problem. And then, as soon as some solo-queue PuGs figure out they're on the same team and in the same Teamspeak, they'll get in the same channel and roflstomp the rest of the PuGs.

Where will it end?

So.... in order for that to work you'd need several of the same players out of the hundreds on at any given time to happen to drop in the same team all while using teamspeak? I.... I don't get it. Is that really the argument? That's like saying that you don't need to save for retirement, just win the lottery.

[Taemien]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

So, again. What's the legitimate business drawback to having a solo queue? What and who is it hurting, other than group people who want to play against people they have an advantage over? Other than that, who's losing in that concept? Where is the legitimate, functional business negative?

Ok I see you're still on a tirade about the first comment I made in this thread about forcing a 4 man queue. That was a solution I gave that would cease the complaints about 4 mans. It would do the job, but I honestly don't think it would ever happen. So arguing about that specific thing is as ridiculous as arguing whether or not the sun rises tomorrow (not being dispariging with that analogy, so don't take offense from it).

As for making a single player game, they simply don't want to. There's many things businesses don't do because they don't feel like it. I'm sure Single player MechWarrior would be profitable, I'd buy it. But I also have a set of short stories in a notebook that I could make money from combining them into a novel, but I won't do it. Why? Because I don't feel like it, I'm working on getting a contract job in communications instead. My focus is elsewhere. Just like PGI is focused on a Multiplayer MechWarrior.

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

So.... in order for that to work you'd need several of the same players out of the hundreds on at any given time to happen to drop in the same team all while using teamspeak? I.... I don't get it. Is that really the argument? That's like saying that you don't need to save for retirement, just win the lottery.

Unless you have an insider that gives you a winning ticket. Aka someone copies and pastes their TS info into the Teamchat. This happens in PS2 all the time and it works well.

I've said it before, one of the main reasons people don't gravitate towards groups is because PUGs are drones to them. You get a random team when you solo Queue. Why would you care about them? You will only know them for 5-10 minutes and possibly never see them again. The future lobby will fix this. Players can even go LFG in there before launching, cutting out the need to even use a TS server.

But therein lies why most don't join TS, they don't know anyone on them. But if they are grouped with someone, they might be more inclined. Its a teammate and not a (total) stranger. Friendships will happen, and then more groups, and even more units.

The problem actually will fix itself.. except for the most anti-social of them all. And for them.. they really should find a single player game. Because even if a group doesn't use TS, they can run through tactics before hand with what mechs they are bringing. Instantly they get an advantage that doesn't require VOIP and may even be better than VOIP in some cases as not everyone on VOIP is coordinating like that.

So for a real solution, lobbies will fix this. Not a solo only queue, there won't be a need for solo queues in the future.

[Dock Steward]

Disapirro, on 08 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Do drop lobbies balance out the groups vs random solo drops, or will this just allow group 1, 2, 3, etc. to become group/team 1 vs. pug all solo team 2?

I can imagine that is what would happen, that groups would continue to abuse the system.

This is my issue with the way you are presenting your point of view. Right there. "Abuse the system." I play a teamwork based game and the fact that I actually use teamwork is a form of abuse?

I would love it if they had a solo only queue because then I wouldn't have to listen to people like you make casual players with a desire to fully utilize the full potential of this game look like some sort of villains.

PGI: please make a queue labeled, "I really just want to play Duck Hunt," so I can play MWO without listening to them b*tch.

[MischiefSC]

Taemien, on 10 July 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Ok I see you're still on a tirade about the first comment I made in this thread about forcing a 4 man queue. That was a solution I gave that would cease the complaints about 4 mans. It would do the job, but I honestly don't think it would ever happen. So arguing about that specific thing is as ridiculous as arguing whether or not the sun rises tomorrow (not being dispariging with that analogy, so don't take offense from it).

Actually I'd missed that. Just the general attitude of people need to team up or quit, or be happy getting rolled.

Taemien, on 10 July 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

As for making a single player game, they simply don't want to. There's many things businesses don't do because they don't feel like it. I'm sure Single player MechWarrior would be profitable, I'd buy it. But I also have a set of short stories in a notebook that I could make money from combining them into a novel, but I won't do it. Why? Because I don't feel like it, I'm working on getting a contract job in communications instead. My focus is elsewhere. Just like PGI is focused on a Multiplayer MechWarrior.

It's a few reasons, money being one. Almost impossible to pirate F2P also there's the potential to make more money on a F2P game. That doesn't however mean they don't want to take the money of people who are not that jazzed on the MP experience but willing to deal with it to play a MW game. Why not take their money?

Taemien, on 10 July 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Unless you have an insider that gives you a winning ticket. Aka someone copies and pastes their TS info into the Teamchat. This happens in PS2 all the time and it works well.

I've said it before, one of the main reasons people don't gravitate towards groups is because PUGs are drones to them. You get a random team when you solo Queue. Why would you care about them? You will only know them for 5-10 minutes and possibly never see them again. The future lobby will fix this. Players can even go LFG in there before launching, cutting out the need to even use a TS server.

But therein lies why most don't join TS, they don't know anyone on them. But if they are grouped with someone, they might be more inclined. Its a teammate and not a (total) stranger. Friendships will happen, and then more groups, and even more units.

The problem actually will fix itself.. except for the most anti-social of them all. And for them.. they really should find a single player game. Because even if a group doesn't use TS, they can run through tactics before hand with what mechs they are bringing. Instantly they get an advantage that doesn't require VOIP and may even be better than VOIP in some cases as not everyone on VOIP is coordinating like that.

So for a real solution, lobbies will fix this. Not a solo only queue, there won't be a need for solo queues in the future.

I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the fundamental statistical fact that most people do not, will not, for any reason, ever, use a VOIP service. I linked you to articles and stats confirming that. Not sure why you keep ignoring that. I get that you do use it and like it and prefer that. Great. It's got nothing to do with what, at least for gamers on average, 82% of people who play more than 10 hours a week in online games, want.

A lobby would be great but unlikely. It would not work with CW. If it happens, great. All for it. I think it's a grand idea.

So it really comes down to you believe that anyone who doesn't want to use TS shouldn't play MWO and that MWO should cater to ~18% of online gamers because....

Once again you're not actually explaining why you're against a solo queue. You'd never see them or have to deal with them. You'd play with people who enjoy playing in teams. Why are you so set against giving PGI an opportunity to engage and market to a larger audience when it costs you nothing and would be a relatively insignificant investment in resources?

So, again. What's the issue with a single player queue?

[Kaspirikay]

sup guys

[Taemien]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Actually I'd missed that. Just the general attitude of people need to team up or quit, or be happy getting rolled.



It's a few reasons, money being one. Almost impossible to pirate F2P also there's the potential to make more money on a F2P game. That doesn't however mean they don't want to take the money of people who are not that jazzed on the MP experience but willing to deal with it to play a MW game. Why not take their money?

A single player game takes resources. Much more than a MP game does. In SP, you need everything MP does minus a server network. But you then need additional art, more maps (asynchronous at that), story, writers, plot. And if you wish to compete with other Cryengine like games (unreal, forgelight, ect), then you also need more then Carole Ruggier as voice actors.

But thats if you even want to devote time, resources, and people to the project. As I said, I've got plenty of projects I could do personally and potentially make enough money to retire on if I put my mind to it (just about everyone in my gaming group is a published author, so I have plenty of aid, help, advice, and references to get my foot in the door). But I don't wish to go that direction. With PGI, its beyond the scope of this project. Besides there's already two new games based on MechWarrior where players can get their SP fix. Blender BattleTech and AssaultTech. Both are based on BattleTech and MechWarrior and a based on Single Player first.

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I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the fundamental statistical fact that most people do not, will not, for any reason, ever, use a VOIP service. I linked you to articles and stats confirming that. Not sure why you keep ignoring that. I get that you do use it and like it and prefer that. Great. It's got nothing to do with what, at least for gamers on average, 82% of people who play more than 10 hours a week in online games, want.

What does that have to do with MWO? it doesn't even have VOIP built in. I bet a higher number of of MMO players don't use MMO mice either. Should they seperate the servers by MMO mice and non-MMO mice? If only 18% of people in MWO are using VOIP then its a non-issue. I'll agree with that. We can stop discussing VOIP now.

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A lobby would be great but unlikely. It would not work with CW. If it happens, great. All for it. I think it's a grand idea.

A lobby is coming and within a few weeks.

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So it really comes down to you believe that anyone who doesn't want to use TS shouldn't play MWO and that MWO should cater to ~18% of online gamers because....

Never said they should be happy with it. They should just understand there's an advantage like any gaming peripheral that is set up properly and shouldn't complain about it. But since its only 18% use VOIP, that means there's roughly only 3 people out of every two games (and half the time on the allied side) that these people will encounter in a match. Which means there's really no reason to separate the queue.

Perhaps if the number was closer to 50% it could warrant separating the queue based on that.

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Once again you're not actually explaining why you're against a solo queue. You'd never see them or have to deal with them. You'd play with people who enjoy playing in teams. Why are you so set against giving PGI an opportunity to engage and market to a larger audience when it costs you nothing and would be a relatively insignificant investment in resources?

So, again. What's the issue with a single player queue?

Solo player only queue splits the playerbase even more. One of two things happens:

The rabid forum minority is actually right (which makes PGI outright putting out falsehoods) and most people do solo. The ones grouping with friends have to solo queue now because they keep getting failed to find match.

or

PGI is correct with the data they have and most people do group which means solo players tend to get the failed to find match message.

Right now neither side gets that, we have the best compromise available. In fact it used to be 8 mans could stomp a total pug group. That doesn't happen now as those groups were cut in HALF to compromise. So solo puggers already got their compromise.. but now want more? That is what I am against. I am against either side having longer queues.

[Boris The Spider]

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/107281-ask-the-devs-34-answers/

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ask the Devs #34 [b]Naitsirch: Will there be a no-premade / solo-drop mode or not.

A: We’re looking at it. Currently most MWO players actually play in groups.

[Monky]

Please, good lord, give us a solo queue.

how this hasn't happened yet is beyond me.

[Tsig]

Fine, everyone in this thread that wants a Solo-Only queue gets it, but their forum posting rights will be revoked for 2 months after implementation, just so the rest of us don't have to listen to you all complain about searching for a game for several hours at a time because hardly anybody's online to play with you.

[MischiefSC]

Taemien, on 10 July 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Stuff

So all your prior comments where what solves everything and makes everyone happier is when everyone joins a teamspeak server don't count? Fair enough. You've been arguing for a while though that the problem is that people are not using teamspeak and if they don't they should be happy to lose. That's a big part of what I'm arguing against.

On SP:
The point is not to point people to other games. The point is to get those people to play MWO and pay money to PGI because it's the best BT offering out and about.

Can you show me where they've said we're getting lobbies? Because I haven't seen that. A brilliant idea but I'm not seeing it anywhere in what PGI has posted so far. Then again I could have missed it.

So your main issue is queue times? I spent a couple hours dropping in 8mans today and got failed to find 3 times. I don't think it's quite that bad but at least that's a reasonable objection. So if there was no discernible impact on queues you'd have no objection? That is fundamentally what the OP said - if there was no impact on matchmaking times.

As to peoples opinions on the forums I don't think that's a justification for anything. The issue is however how do you let people play the game the way they want as much as possible. That's the easiest possible way to draw people and keep people. Most people who leave don't rant on the forums - they just find another service that gives them what they want.

[Tehtos]

Isn't this one of those things ELO and match making is supposed to solve? If a group has an advantage (experienced groups) their ELO raises and they get pushed up away from the people without that advantage (solo players).

Yes, the current match maker still needs a lot of tweaking, but solving the problem in the match maker improves the experience for everybody--not just for solo or group players.