56 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Apostal, on 08 July 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

QD though is at the bottom of the heavy list and because of it's engine sizes occupies the role of a bridge between the Medium and Heavy Chassis. The 4JJ on the Victor are fine, the problem with jumpjets is that you need the forward momentum to make the best use of them which is where larger engines provide the pivot point.

A 400XL I agree is wasted tonnage, that's why I'm not doing over a 380XL where I get a good return of speed to tonnage, and still have the firepower I require. But yea at present the larger the engine in a Victor the more balanced it seems to be... kind of broken in that regard. But until slower close range brawler are more viable (without being spotted then shot to pieces 500m from a target), you need the speed to cover both ground and flanks.

Yeah what happend with the QD is what I kind of expected out of the DS as far as it bridging the gap between Heavies and Assaults, guess it just wasn't a big bridge hehe. Also I know all about the broken forward momentum mechanic of jump jets as it really makes them hard to use with the new movement mechanics.

That is why I am hopeing the Elite efficiences end up really changing the way the Victors play. With a 350XL engine, I will be able to get 78 kp/h with speedtweak which is just about the same speed on a base QD with a 300XL. Also double Anchor Turn, Hard break and Kinetic burst will obviously make a significant impact as well.

Lastly, the DS is starting to grow on me. I have 38 matches in now with 40 kills and a 1.57 K/D ratio which is climbing pretty fast now that I have gotten use to how the DS handles compared to how I expected it to handle. It is not a bad mech at all to be honest, I am just not sure it is better than my Heavy Metal with the exact same build (slightly smaller engine, slightly slower and slightly more armor). I am pretty sure the Elite efficiencies are going to end up making it or breaking it for me.

I have a feeling my inital instinct that there wouldn't be enough difference between Heavy Metal and DS was right and I should have held off on the DS but I guess that is water under the bridge now.

Note: My disappointment is due to the similiarity between the DS and the HM, not that there is an issue with the DS so if your using anything I have said to aid your decision on buying the DS please understand that I think it is an excellent hero mech and you can't go wrong with it.....IF you don't already own a HM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

The DS is quite good; in exchange for only a little less armour, it is noticeably more manueverable/faster than a Highlander. Compared to the 'free' variants, it has the bonus of having well-spread hardpoints, meaning that being armed isn't nearly as crippling.

If you're doing fire support, or any role that puts you at 300+ meters a good deal of the time, the lack of an AC/20 is not something you will notice; as with the previous poster, my KDR is quite high (and I run competitive 8-mans, mostly).

[Devil Fox]

Viktor Drake, on 08 July 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Yeah what happend with the QD is what I kind of expected out of the DS as far as it bridging the gap between Heavies and Assaults, guess it just wasn't a big bridge hehe. Also I know all about the broken forward momentum mechanic of jump jets as it really makes them hard to use with the new movement mechanics.

That is why I am hopeing the Elite efficiences end up really changing the way the Victors play. With a 350XL engine, I will be able to get 78 kp/h with speedtweak which is just about the same speed on a base QD with a 300XL. Also double Anchor Turn, Hard break and Kinetic burst will obviously make a significant impact as well.

Lastly, the DS is starting to grow on me. I have 38 matches in now with 40 kills and a 1.57 K/D ratio which is climbing pretty fast now that I have gotten use to how the DS handles compared to how I expected it to handle. It is not a bad mech at all to be honest, I am just not sure it is better than my Heavy Metal with the exact same build (slightly smaller engine, slightly slower and slightly more armor). I am pretty sure the Elite efficiencies are going to end up making it or breaking it for me.

I have a feeling my inital instinct that there wouldn't be enough difference between Heavy Metal and DS was right and I should have held off on the DS but I guess that is water under the bridge now.

Note: My disappointment is due to the similiarity between the DS and the HM, not that there is an issue with the DS so if your using anything I have said to aid your decision on buying the DS please understand that I think it is an excellent hero mech and you can't go wrong with it.....IF you don't already own a HM.

Yup I'm interested in how the double efficiency will affect the DS, because I'm using the machine right now to tie up assault and bound over Atlas to force them to turn or get rear-ended. I am the opposite on the HM, I don't mind it but it didn't live up to the speed and weapon load-out that I enjoyed due to the meta at present... particularly as brawling was coming to a halt. But 114 matches and 2ish K/D in the DS makes me excited for stock variants.

[Carrioncrows]

Viktor Drake, on 07 July 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Well I decided to take the plung and so far I am regreting.

I decided to purchase the DS because I am running the exact same build on my Heavy Metal and the only flaw I found was in speed and agility. My throughts were that the DS, being 10 tons lighter and mounting a 350XL vs a 330XL and having a higher top speed would be significantly more agile both on the ground and in flight. So far that is not the case at all.

I guess I can only hope that unlocking the Elite efficiencies really transform the mech into what I was hoping/expecting the Dragon Slayer to be.

You have to use the speed or yeah, otherwise it's just a 10 tons lighter heavy metal.

Go with 380XL
1 Gauss Rifle (x4 tons of ammo)
2 SRM4's (x2 tons of ammo)
3 medium lasers
and 12 or 13 DHS depending on how you want your armor.

it work extremely well.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I bought one last night and I've been doing well with it currently on a 6.00 with it after 10 games.

I kept the standard engine for now armed it with 2ERPPCS, gauss rifle and a pair of streak launchers for when I run hot.

I've died once and that was a poor match yet I still got 2 kills.

It's certainly miles ahead of the awesome.

[C E Dwyer]

DRAGON SLAYER 17 11 5 2.20 15 12 1.25 4,764 14,593
01:37:13


srm4 x2
gauss
ERPPC
MPL x2

16DHs

2JJ

XL330

I'm happy with mine hardly changed it

[Amsro]

40 matches in and I'm throwing into storage. I have enough xp for speed tweak and until I get at least 2 more variants so I can unlock said speed tweak it will stay in storage.

Jumps back into the Heavy Metal.

[Shae Starfyre]

throw on the XL400 engine and go for DPS and not Alpha, and the agility comes into play, and you will find that you can dance around assaults and lay waste to their high alpha builds.

I find the agility to be great in these circumstances.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Arrachtas, on 08 July 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

The DS is quite good; in exchange for only a little less armour, it is noticeably more manueverable/faster than a Highlander. Compared to the 'free' variants, it has the bonus of having well-spread hardpoints, meaning that being armed isn't nearly as crippling.

If you're doing fire support, or any role that puts you at 300+ meters a good deal of the time, the lack of an AC/20 is not something you will notice; as with the previous poster, my KDR is quite high (and I run competitive 8-mans, mostly).

It is only faster and considerably more manuverable depending on the build. I know my HM with a maxed 330XL, 5JJs and fully Mastered is actually quite nimble, almost as good if not just as good as my non-mastered 350XL, 4JJs, DS.

Aphoticus, on 09 July 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

throw on the XL400 engine and go for DPS and not Alpha, and the agility comes into play, and you will find that you can dance around assaults and lay waste to their high alpha builds.

I find the agility to be great in these circumstances.

I just can't bring myself to do it. A 400XL brings my total firepower to less than what I can push out on my Quickdraw and it still ends up being slower and less mobile. Sure the DS would have 15-20 more armor on its CT and 8 or so on the side torsos but considering it would have less firepower and less top speed, it just doesn't make sense.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 09 July 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Fusea]

This is an interesting thread. I was seriously thinking about the DS since I've always loved the Victor, but Phoenix and the lack of an ac/20 had me waiting for the MC builds. As far as everyone complaining about agility for the DS, you have to remeber, its 33% bigger than the QD, and only 11% smaller than the HM, so it's going to handle like a pig compared to the QD, and more or less the same as everything above it. The Victor's trick is that no one ever expects the level of agility and speed you can squeeze out of it.

Now I just have to learn to use jump jets without killing myself.

[Fulcrom Kerensky]

My current build that makes me smile... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6f669570987c02a

Edited by Fulcrom Kerensky, 09 July 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Fusea, on 09 July 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

This is an interesting thread. I was seriously thinking about the DS since I've always loved the Victor, but Phoenix and the lack of an ac/20 had me waiting for the MC builds. As far as everyone complaining about agility for the DS, you have to remeber, its 33% bigger than the QD, and only 11% smaller than the HM, so it's going to handle like a pig compared to the QD, and more or less the same as everything above it. The Victor's trick is that no one ever expects the level of agility and speed you can squeeze out of it.

Now I just have to learn to use jump jets without killing myself.

Yeah I realize the QD is 33% smaller than the DS but considering the top speed of my build was only 12% slower it just seemed like it should be alot closer to the QD than the Highlander.

Also there are alot of screwy game mechanics going on that I had never realized before. One is that forward momentum on JJs is determined by forward running speed and that JJs had no forward thrust of their own.

Another is that JJ distance is apparently determined by some other factor aside from just the number of JJs on the mech, probably weight. For example in Table top, 4 JJs will propel a mech 120m no matter what size the mech. This is not the case in MWO. 4 JJs on a QD offer signficantly more jump distance for the speed than 4 JJs on the DS. 4 JJs on a QD gives it a 28m distance and 4 on a DS give it only 21m distance. 8m is alot when your trying to clear a wall on Canyon Network.

Ironically 4 JJs on a 90ton Heavy Metal give it 22m of distance, more than the same amount of JJs on the lighter DS so maybe I am wrong at weight. 5 JJs on the Heavy Metal gives it 28m which is a huge jumping advantage over the lighter, faster DS. Something just seems a bit wrong here hehe.

I guess to me it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The fact that the DS is only 12% slower than the QD + 10 tons lighter and 15% faster than the Highlander (HM) so it just seems like it should produce agility that totally outclasses the Highlander in every way, shape, form or fashion. Guess there are just some hidden stats holding it back, maybe for balance purposes.

[One Medic Army]

Viktor Drake, on 09 July 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Also there are alot of screwy game mechanics going on that I had never realized before. One is that forward momentum on JJs is determined by forward running speed and that JJs had no forward thrust of their own.

Another is that JJ distance is apparently determined by some other factor aside from just the number of JJs on the mech, probably weight. For example in Table top, 4 JJs will propel a mech 120m no matter what size the mech. This is not the case in MWO. 4 JJs on a QD offer signficantly more jump distance for the speed than 4 JJs on the DS. 4 JJs on a QD gives it a 28m distance and 4 on a DS give it only 21m distance. 8m is alot when your trying to clear a wall on Canyon Network.

Ironically 4 JJs on a 90ton Heavy Metal give it 22m of distance, more than the same amount of JJs on the lighter DS so maybe I am wrong at weight. 5 JJs on the Heavy Metal gives it 28m which is a huge jumping advantage over the lighter, faster DS. Something just seems a bit wrong here hehe.

I guess to me it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What the JJs do here is provide vertical thrust.
First they provide a high amount of initial force for liftoff, then they provide a lesser amount of force for continued upward movement.
Jumpjets in MWO are Class 1-5, Class 1 jets provide the most thrust, and Class 5 jets the least.
The Highlander jumps more than the Victor because the Highlander is at the low end of using Class 1s, whereas the Victor is near the top end for using Class 4s.
Same deal if you compare the Trebuchet (near top of class 2) vs Quickdraw (bottom end of class 3).

[Angel of Annihilation]

One Medic Army, on 09 July 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

What the JJs do here is provide vertical thrust.
First they provide a high amount of initial force for liftoff, then they provide a lesser amount of force for continued upward movement.
Jumpjets in MWO are Class 1-5, Class 1 jets provide the most thrust, and Class 5 jets the least.
The Highlander jumps more than the Victor because the Highlander is at the low end of using Class 1s, whereas the Victor is near the top end for using Class 4s.
Same deal if you compare the Trebuchet (near top of class 2) vs Quickdraw (bottom end of class 3).

Oh I understand (Finally) how they work in MWO but I still think it is a wonky way for them to work. I mean it does make sense that 4 JJs on a QD would have more lift than the same 4 JJs on a Victor due to the weight, however it just doesn't jive at all with the performance it is suppose to have based on TRO specs. Also the fact there is no forward thrust SUCKS and is totally NOT how JJs are suppose to work. They are suppose to be vectorable. You should be able to not only leap straight forward but angle to the left or right. It wasn't a huge issue prior to the new movement mechanics but now it just manages to get the damn mech stuck right on the edge of a cliff often as not. There NEEDS to at least be a forward and reverse thrust option when you fire jump jets and push the forward or back button.

[One Medic Army]

Viktor Drake, on 09 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Oh I understand (Finally) how they work in MWO but I still think it is a wonky way for them to work. I mean it does make sense that 4 JJs on a QD would have more lift than the same 4 JJs on a Victor due to the weight, however it just doesn't jive at all with the performance it is suppose to have based on TRO specs. Also the fact there is no forward thrust SUCKS and is totally NOT how JJs are suppose to work. They are suppose to be vectorable. You should be able to not only leap straight forward but angle to the left or right. It wasn't a huge issue prior to the new movement mechanics but now it just manages to get the damn mech stuck right on the edge of a cliff often as not. There NEEDS to at least be a forward and reverse thrust option when you fire jump jets and push the forward or back button.

I completely agree we should have some forward thrust as part of using JJs.

[SgtMagor]

One Medic Army, on 09 July 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I completely agree we should have some forward thrust as part of using JJs.

add to that the ability to hover!, if your not forcing your jets to move in any direction we should be able to hover in place at about the height of the mech and the fuel (plasma) should vent more slowly so you can hover for at least twice as long,

[One Medic Army]

SgtMagor, on 09 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

add to that the ability to hover!, if your not forcing your jets to move in any direction we should be able to hover in place at about the height of the mech and the fuel (plasma) should vent more slowly so you can hover for at least twice as long,

You can hover now, let off the jets then hold them again and you'll hold stationary in midair if you get the timing right.

That said, I don't see any need for hovering, and it's not something that TT or lore indicated as possible with mech jumpjets to my knowledge. They had VTOLs for that.