63 replies to this topic

[Divine Madcat]

So, my wife has been wanting to try MWO, given how often i play it (especially on the weekend). We get her account setup, and i have her launch in the training grounds. Once she feels comfortable, i have her launch in a regular match, and i keep giving her tips while she is playing.

The first match goes ok, and she manages to get a kill. From there, it all went down hill. The next 4 matches, she winds up fighting at least 2 PPC stalkers a match (i think there were more, but only going by what i counted). In her trial C4, she was all but instantly obliterated. At that point, she logged off, and went back to WoW....

While i hate the PPC boats, my frustration isn't on them so much... it comes down to a player with only two matches (still earning the huge cadet bonus), somehow gets teamed against at least two 4-6 PPC stalkers... people who have obviously at least progressed past the cadet stage, every round past her first. She was so discouraged at being killed in one shot, without having a chance to get going.

If this is what new players are running into, we have a REAL problem here folks. I like to think of my wife as an avid gamer; if she is run off that easy, what is happening to new players, who have no tutorial what so ever, and get dropped into their first matches against insta-kill boats? How many people are we losing because of that alone?

And on a side topic; she was blown away that you can already buy things. Her quote: "Isn't the game still in beta??".

[zraven7]

Yeah, this game does have a severely steep learning curve, and they need to address that. A tutorial mode, or multi-player training grounds, would help a lot.

Sorry dude. Please tell your wife that we'd love for her to give it another shot,

[Rengakun]

zraven7, on 08 July 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Sorry dude. Please tell your wife that we'd love for her to give it another shot,

For some reason that sentence feels... kinda odd.

......

Anyway, Tutorial is supposedly coming in September 17th.

The Matchmaker is flawed from the start and can go **** itself. I think ELO was actually for chess.

The Matchmaker doesn't even work properly most of the time, but it's still better than ending up in a 3v8 (I remember those times...).

The devs said that new player's ELO Rating is 1100 of something (Can't remember). If you see PPC STKs in such low ELO Brackets, you know something is wrong with those Pilots. They are most likely exploiting their ELO Ratings, or they just suck so much they have to fight Newbs. Another possibility is that the Matchmaker ran out of people to match your wife with, so you can probably guess the effects of that.


In they end, I can't help you with finding statistics on how many newbs get cored on their first few matches. I can only try to comfort you. (No innuendo intended)

[mogs01gt]

zraven7, on 08 July 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Yeah, this game does have a severely steep learning curve, and they need to address that. A tutorial mode, or multi-player training grounds, would help a lot.

The problem isnt a learning curve issue. The problem is getting matched with people who have mechs capable of one shotting you...

[Waking One]

It's not that the ppc stalkers etc. are exploiting. It's just that PPCs now became so famous for being OP that everybody uses them, even the most terrible players, because of how easy they are.

[Genewen]

I blame elo.
As PGI has already mentioned several times, the matchmaker tries to bring us to a Win/Loss ratio of about 1. Yesterday, when I logged in, I had quite a few more wins than losses. So what did the matchmaker do? Throw me in with at least two newbies and a bunch of simply bad players every single match while the opponent did not have one. While I surely got my damage and kills, the games were no contest and we got steamrolled most of the time.

It is very likely that something similar happened to your wife. She, and other new (or bad) players keep getting used by the MM to drop other player's W/L ratio.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Divine Madcat, on 08 July 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

So, my wife has been wanting to try MWO, given how often i play it (especially on the weekend). We get her account setup, and i have her launch in the training grounds. Once she feels comfortable, i have her launch in a regular match, and i keep giving her tips while she is playing.

The first match goes ok, and she manages to get a kill. From there, it all went down hill. The next 4 matches, she winds up fighting at least 2 PPC stalkers a match (i think there were more, but only going by what i counted). In her trial C4, she was all but instantly obliterated. At that point, she logged off, and went back to WoW....

While i hate the PPC boats, my frustration isn't on them so much... it comes down to a player with only two matches (still earning the huge cadet bonus), somehow gets teamed against at least two 4-6 PPC stalkers... people who have obviously at least progressed past the cadet stage, every round past her first. She was so discouraged at being killed in one shot, without having a chance to get going.

If this is what new players are running into, we have a REAL problem here folks. I like to think of my wife as an avid gamer; if she is run off that easy, what is happening to new players, who have no tutorial what so ever, and get dropped into their first matches against insta-kill boats? How many people are we losing because of that alone?

And on a side topic; she was blown away that you can already buy things. Her quote: "Isn't the game still in beta??".

Sorry this happened to her and I totally understand and agree with what you are saying and what she did. This is what a lot of us who support the game but are very concerned have been raging about on the forums for months and have received nothing but grief from those who think that things are just perfect. If PGI doesn't get off their arses very soon, dump the ELO and go to a BV system with a Pilot Stat modifier then I'm afraid it will be too late. I find myself thinking about starting a sub again with SWtoR just to give you an idea where this is at.

[Roland]

Honestly, the Matchmaker is total trash at this point.

On Saturday I was pugging it up, and the matchmaker kept building up a team of me and a bunch of random folks against 4 Dv8 guys and 4 Lunawolves. It did this like 5 games in a row. Some of the folks on my team were in freaking trial mechs for God's sake.

It wasn't like the Dv8 and Lunawolves were trying to sync drop or something... I sure as hell wasn't trying to get matched up against them. But the matchmaker just kept dumping us in the same game, over and over again.

What's ridiculous though is the fact that it actually kept putting the two 4 mans onto the same team. I honestly wouldn't have expected that. I suppose it's possible that the matchmaker just says, "OK, I got 4 guys on this team... need 4 more.. OH HAI! There's 4 more guys! I can fill up the team in one fell swoop!"

If that's actually how the matchmaker does it, then that's a problem. On some level, I think the devs need to know this, but I kind of doubt they're gonna read this.

Anyway... at the same time, there really should not be any trial mech guys who are just learning the game EVER matched up against top tier teams like Dv8. That is not something that should really ever happen with any kind of regularity.

Honestly, the matchmaker is kind of a lost cause at this point. Allowing a lobby system so folks can just make their own teams would work out infinitely better, and really should be infinitely more simple to implement.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Waking One, on 08 July 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

It's not that the ppc stalkers etc. are exploiting. It's just that PPCs now became so famous for being OP that everybody uses them, even the most terrible players, because of how easy they are.

Take out the converge and make it conical path of fire with heavy range modifiers and movement shake (much like TT rules) and things will balance out nicely. Once the Advanced tech is brought in there can be Targeting computers (please nothing cheaper than 30 million each) that can tighten things up for the elite players out there. Right now, this version of the BattleTech universe seems not to have had 4 succession wars that spanned 350 years and saw the destruction of almost all advanced Production Facilities, Libraries, and Universities and the massive loss of Tech Knowhow that goes along with those events. Everyone has everything, relatively cheap and easily available . It's sickening actually.

[zraven7]

Rengakun, on 08 July 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

For some reason that sentence feels... kinda odd.

Allow me to rephrase.

Please tell your wife that a vocal portion of the community apologizes for it's current state, and hopes that she will attempt the game again, as we would love to watch our player base grow, and hope that, in the future, she learns to enjoy the game as we do.

[Lostdragon]

I have tried to introduce several friends to the game and they experienced the same issues. It is even worse when I group with them. No one I got to try the game has stuck with it long enough to buy their own mech because those first few matches are just painful.

These are guys all roughly my age (30) with disposable income to spend on games. But they also have jobs and families so when they have a bad experience with a game they are not going to waste their limited gaming time on something that is not fun, they drop it and go for a game they enjoy. If I had not already been a big MW fan I would not have played more than 10 matches myself.

[Divine Madcat]

Waking One, on 08 July 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

It's not that the ppc stalkers etc. are exploiting. It's just that PPCs now became so famous for being OP that everybody uses them, even the most terrible players, because of how easy they are.

But that is part of my problem. In order for her to have run into PPC stalkers, those people had to either be:
1) Already playing for some time (lets face it, a stalker and PPCs does not come cheap
2) Playing for a shorter time and throwing money at the game (you can cash buy a stalker, but not the PPCs).

It was so frustrating to see the powerful mechs getting thrown into mechs with a complete greenhorn. I am not raging against the stalkers (that is an entirely separeate issue).. the MM is broken, and i can't believe we aren't hemmoraging new players.

Something PGI needs to consider - for as much as they keep saying this is Beta, beta beta.. first impressions matter. The game has been like this for months; after players see what they did, do you think they want to come back during "launch"? Some might, but most won't. For them, the game is already launched (you can buy time and mechs, and play the game.. doesn't get more launched than that)...

[FrDrake]

I thought they tweaked MM to keep first 25 match people only matching against first 25 match people?

Do we not have enough new players (or low Elo) players playing to fill out matches?

Would you wife have had a better time playing if she failed to find a match 3 times in a row? I'm not trying to be snarky with this question I'm honestly asking it, trying to figure out if PGI should just fail to find match if a newbie is going to get stuck with ringers. I don't know your wife or other new players, what would be the "better" outcome?

[Lostdragon]

FrDrake, on 08 July 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I thought they tweaked MM to keep first 25 match people only matching against first 25 match people?

Do we not have enough new players (or low Elo) players playing to fill out matches?

Would you wife have had a better time playing if she failed to find a match 3 times in a row? I'm not trying to be snarky with this question I'm honestly asking it, trying to figure out if PGI should just fail to find match if a newbie is going to get stuck with ringers. I don't know your wife or other new players, what would be the "better" outcome?

Lots of people speculate you see noobs and vets together due to low player count but PGI won't release that data so only they know for sure. I personally hate the MM and how it works because if you are winning too much it tries to force you to lose and if you are losing too much it tries to throw you a bone. It does this by teaming you with or against people who are significantly better or worse than you. That is not fun for anyone. I don't enjoy ripping apart noobs in frakenmechs with my highly optimized builds and I don't enjoy having a team that needs me to carry them on my back to have any shot of winning. I want to play with and against people who are about the same skill level as me, those are the fun matches but they don't happen often enough now.

I think a better system would be to have 5-6 tiers of elo and you do not get matched against anyone who is more than +-1 tier from you. New players start in tier 1 so they only play tier 1 and 2 players. If this meant you had to wait 2-3 minutes for a match I think that would be preferable to the frustration everyone experiences now.

[JokerVictor]

I'll quote myself, since it's still just as applicable. Bolded the important part.

JokerVictor, on 17 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

....
The Elo system was developed for chess. An individual game. In that setting, the wins and losses are based solely on the individual player's skill and ability to adapt. Moving individual players toward a 1.0 W/L works extremely well in it's intended setting. Whether you beat a superior rated opponent or lose to an inferior rated one is entirely down to individual performance. The system itself does not have a hand in determining the outcome, though the system obviously does predict what the outcome is based on the player's ratings.

Now, let's apply that same system to a random team setting, like MWO. The goal of the system is now to move teams toward a 1.0 W/L, so by definition the system now has an active role in determining game outcome. Whether you win or lose in an Elo based team setting is almost entirely down to the matchmaker. If it determines you need to lose, you will most likely lose... and your individual skill will likely not matter at all. If the system predicts you'll lose, it's because the teams are stacked and not because you are individually ranked lower than your opponent and visa versa.

It's an awful way to balance skill. It screws literally everyone involved. The high skill players get saddled with teams of boat anchors and the low skilled players are forced to compete with much higher skilled players on an almost constant basis. Or, in this game's case, generally much better equipped players are playing against and with players with terrible equipment.

And, in this game, having even 2 extremely below average players on your team is an almost unbeatable crutch, if the other team doesn't have 2 correspondingly bad players. It completely destroys any sense of 'fairness' in losing or winning because the teams are generally built from such wide deviation averages.

Add in the fact that weight class matching is non-existent and you have the giant t*rd of a match maker we've currently got. Another great idea executed PGI, way to go.

Edit: I should add, the current player population problems make all of this worse. Much worse.

Edited by JokerVictor, 08 July 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Turist0AT]

Or just so few ppl playing that MM can't find right ppl. Lots of veterans and few new players. How many people are playing mwo? Ooh they dont tell us, wonder why?

[jozkhan]

It is thoroughly irresponsible of the company to not have addressed the new player experience after such a long time of being aware of it.

What the OP describes is pretty much the exact same result I got when I introduced a very hardcore tournament playing TT old hand to the game back in December last year! This person was also an avid gamer and I dont know anyone with more love for the franchise than him yet after 5-6 games he was out (even though he dropped about $30-40 on the game at the start - as the cadet bonus wasnt running back then)

I cant get them to try it again no matter what I say. I cant get any of my gamer friends to play this game and I have tried hard.

It's irresponsible to the new players (and cruel) to not have a much improved 'new player experience' but it's also INSANE to be hurting your own profits by killing off such a high percentage of new customers. It's negligent and I hope to hell there are shareholders that are aware this is going on and can insist on more business-savvy sensible approach to new player retention.

Edited by jozkhan, 08 July 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Hate to say it, those people in the ppc STKs yet are still at beginner level Elo ratings must be terrible at the game.

With the cadet bonus new players should be out of the trial mechs in a handful of matches and into a real mech, in which time all those bads can be farmed and you really get started on the ladder.

[Mechteric]

the matchmaker unfortunately will put low Elo players on the same team as high Elo. Now the opposing team's Elo should be similar, but the fact they're in the same game at all does not bode well. Elo needs to be separated out into tiers such that they cannot commingle!

[Lootee]

I'd rather they trash the random matchmaker unless the player presses a 'random instant action' button. Do that and you get what you get.

Make the default launch grab 16 players. 2 players with the highest Elo are assigned as captains. Then they take turns picking teammates. The picking lobby needs to show which mech is selected and how many matches that player has had with that mech. Just show green, regular, veteran, elite, legendary and a summary of the weapon loadout.

Since players do the team picking the only person you can blame for imbalances is the team captain. If he wants to win, he should be picking the best pilots in the best mechs. Of course you might get a captain who wants to try something unorthodox, like 4 meds and 4 lights, but that's fine too if he has a plan.

This is only for solo players. Premades and 8 mans should be given a different lobby to form matches. That should permanently put an end to MM massive tonnage imbalance woes (unless a captain does it on purpose as part of a strategy) and premades vs 8 newbie pugs.

Team picking will take a little longer but wouldn't you rather have better matchups vs fast roflstomps ? Add a commander bonus win or lose to encourage the team captain to issue commands on the battlegrid.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 08 July 2013 - 07:41 AM.