40 replies to this topic

[Vespere Dax]

Ok given this is with random solo drops but it seems like everytime I log half my team dies within the 1st 4 mins because they rush straight into the enemies killbox.

I usually get 400+ dmg and 2-3 kills a match but I'm still matched with nubs like this on my team.
What the hell is ELO doing?

ELO should match you with teammates with the same ELO and then match the overall ELO average with a enemy team average.

Unfortunately I don't think it works like this.

Chess ELO only works when the sample size is humongous. From how it's trending it seems like the sample size is relatively small now.

[Braggart]

ELO was never meant for team based games either.

ELO shows personal skill level. Something that cannot be accurately factored when your win and loss is factored so heavily into who you get teamed with, and against.

They need lose ELO in favor of tiered brackets, and only certain brackets can get to play against each other.

[Deathlike]

When someone asks "plan?", you are expected to answer it in a way that doesn't offend them, but offer them a clue to potential future success.

Otherwise, you are playing the MWO version of "Lemmings".

[Kunae]

Deathlike, on 09 July 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

When someone asks "plan?", you are expected to answer it in a way that doesn't offend them, but offer them a clue to potential future success.

Otherwise, you are playing the MWO version of "Lemmings".

When someone asks "plan?", I know we're going to lose, with that guy probably the first to die.

[Mudhutwarrior]

No one cares most often. We are all used to getting stomped anyways. Sick of trying to work as a team while stompers roam freely. If I can get some shots off I am satisfied. Best one can hope for these days.

[Deathlike]

Kunae, on 09 July 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

When someone asks "plan?", I know we're going to lose, with that guy probably the first to die.

Heh. Once in a while it doesn't end up in a complete disaster...

[jakucha]

Still lots of new players it would appear.

[Enigmos]

Vespere Dax, on 09 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Ok given this is with random solo drops but it seems like everytime I log half my team dies within the 1st 4 mins because they rush straight into the enemies killbox.

I usually get 400+ dmg and 2-3 kills a match but I'm still matched with nubs like this on my team.
What the hell is ELO doing?

ELO should match you with teammates with the same ELO and then match the overall ELO average with a enemy team average.

Unfortunately I don't think it works like this.

Chess ELO only works when the sample size is humongous. From how it's trending it seems like the sample size is relatively small now.

Not all mechs are assaults. Some have different roles to play and deploy differently. Expecting everyone to stay together and focus fire is great advice if you are all in assaults and everyone knows that staying together really means staying with you. Otherwise this one will stick with that one, and everyone else will decide everyone else is to stick with them wherever they decide to go. Leadership oriented mythologies abound.

But asking your lights to stay with the assaults negates their few tactical advantages. Lights move fast and assaults move slow. You aren't running a convoy you are running a battle. Similarly dedicated missile boats need close support cover and that is a function of your mediums. So missile boats and snipers are usually allowed to hang back close to cover, hopefully with a skirmisher to fight off rampaging ravens and homicidal commandos.

In the absence of a clear plan, and until the enemy is met, most pilots will look for the opponent, and that looks much like rushing off to certain death. For good reason, especially if the opponents have a plan, coordinating communications, and experience.

Case in point: I was in a drop on Alpine Peaks yesterday, and a bright fellow suggested we all run around the mountain to cap instead of engaging at the radio tower. His was a good plan except we had three Atlas already heading toward the radio tower. Second, if we went around the mountain we would have to travel two sides of a triangle while the opposition travelled only the somewhat shorter hypotenuse. They would have their whole team on our cap while the three atlas, and probably most of us as well, were still getting there. The only way his plan could succeed other than complete luck is if the atlas made a stand and tied up the opponent. The fellow did not wish to understand we might have had a good reason, namely experience, counseling us to die instead of lose.

Sometimes what does not seem a good idea is the only workable option. Your pilots running off on their own might be Rambos, but other hand they might have a good reason. Don't assume, inquire.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 09 July 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Roland]

Folks who cower in the back while their team engages are just as big a problem as folks who rambo over a hill and die.

It can often be the case that, without communication, a team has a hard time orchestrating coordinated movements. This leads to cases where some members of the team recognize an opportunity to attack and seize it, but others on the team are afraid to push forward. The end result is that the offensive section of the team gets gutted because they end up outnumbered (even if perhaps they initially had an advantage).

[FupDup]

Quote

Why do my teammates rush in and die?

Why does a bear sh*t in the woods?

[soarra]

Roland, on 09 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Folks who cower in the back while their team engages are just as big a problem as folks who rambo over a hill and die.

It can often be the case that, without communication, a team has a hard time orchestrating coordinated movements. This leads to cases where some members of the team recognize an opportunity to attack and seize it, but others on the team are afraid to push forward. The end result is that the offensive section of the team gets gutted because they end up outnumbered (even if perhaps they initially had an advantage).

but running over that hill blindly into 8 enemy mechs is smart

[Doctor Smiley]

I like to lick my windows of my Mech with all the other window lickers who rush in blindly

[Lugh]

Roland, on 09 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Folks who cower in the back while their team engages are just as big a problem as folks who rambo over a hill and die.

It can often be the case that, without communication, a team has a hard time orchestrating coordinated movements. This leads to cases where some members of the team recognize an opportunity to attack and seize it, but others on the team are afraid to push forward. The end result is that the offensive section of the team gets gutted because they end up outnumbered (even if perhaps they initially had an advantage).

Last night we had an 8 v 8 scrum at the enemy base where my lance of 4 was doing all the fighting and the atlases and awesomes were staring at walls. We ended up losing 5 - 8 because those milling fools couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And they weren't as a result contributing during most of that scrum.

[soarra]

Countess Hemah, on 09 July 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I like to lick my windows of my Mech with all the other window lickers who rush in blindly

what flavor windex today?

[AlmightyAeng]

Honestly, these days my 4-mans dropping in PuG's consist mostly of fast mediums, letting the assault/heavy group all stick together while we look for that one mech that let himself drift too far off from his team, pick him off, and break away again.

As far as how ELO works...are they supposed to group simliar ELO together? Or are they looking for a 'target number' combined ELO that ends up matching highly skilled and poorly skilled players together for an 'average' that they match to another team?

[Doctor Smiley]

soarra, on 09 July 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

what flavor windex today?

From what I was told by a really good reliable source its Blueberry Flavor today

[Angel of Annihilation]

OriginalTibs, on 09 July 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Not all mechs are assaults. Some have different roles to play and deploy differently. Expecting everyone to stay together and focus fire is great advice if you are all in assaults and everyone knows that staying together really means staying with you. Otherwise this one will stick with that one, and everyone else will decide everyone else is to stick with them wherever they decide to go. Leadership oriented mythologies abound.

But asking your lights to stay with the assaults negates their few tactical advantages. Lights move fast and assaults move slow. You aren't running a convoy you are running a battle. Similarly dedicated missile boats need close support cover and that is a function of your mediums. So missile boats and snipers are usually allowed to hang back close to cover, hopefully with a skirmisher to fight off rampaging ravens and homicidal commandos.

In the absence of a clear plan, and until the enemy is met, most pilots will look for the opponent, and that looks much like rushing off to certain death. For good reason, especially if the opponents have a plan, coordinating communications, and experience.

Case in point: I was in a drop on Alpine Peaks yesterday, and a bright fellow suggested we all run around the mountain to cap instead of engaging at the radio tower. His was a good plan except we had three Atlas already heading toward the radio tower. Second, if we went around the mountain we would have to travel two sides of a triangle while the opposition travelled only the somewhat shorter hypotenuse. They would have their whole team on our cap while the three atlas, and probably most of us as well, were still getting there. The only way his plan could succeed other than complete luck is if the atlas made a stand and tied up the opponent. The fellow did not wish to understand we might have had a good reason, namely experience, counseling us to die instead of lose.

Sometimes what does not seem a good idea is the only workable option. Your pilots running off on their own might be Rambos, but other hand they might have a good reason. Don't assume, inquire.

He is talking about the random Centurion Pilot with a maxed XL engine and maybe just a PPC for a weapon, running 500m ahead of everyone just to die.

As far as roles, there are really two at the start of the match. Recon and Support. Lights need to roam to find the enemy so that the main body can react. Then once the enemy is found, they should retreat back to the main group to support. Assaults and larger heaviers should then lead the way with faster heavies and mediums supporting either through direct support or through harrassing the flanks and rear.

Once you run off and do your own thing and get beyond the support of your teammates you usually end up an easy kill. There are a few exceptions but they usually involve fast calvary mechs doing a flank march or lights heading to cap to distract the enemy in front of them.

[Roland]

soarra, on 09 July 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

but running over that hill blindly into 8 enemy mechs is smart

It's always difficult when pugging to deal with folks who are blindly agressive.

On one hand, following them to their death is a mistake... but at the same time, just leaving them to die alone is generally ALSO a mistake, since it can then leave you in a situation where half your team died without accomplishing anything, leaving you dramatically outnumbered.

On some level, if your team engages, it needs to do so in a coherent manner. In a PUG, you can't always coordinate those things, so you end up in a position where you need to take advantage of what you have. In the case where you have rabble who rush in to their death, you need to find a way to at least take advantage of the enemy gutting them, and do some work while they're killing the lemmings.

But as I said, the problem of cowardly pilots is often just as bad as that of aggressive rambo pilots. I've often seen folks just cower in a hole while jump snipers pick them apart. In situations like that, it effectively just plays to the strengths of the opposition, and is thus a losing proposition.

[AnnoyingCat]

Because they are MLG in call of duty

[LoveLost85]

Roland, on 09 July 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

It's always difficult when pugging to deal with folks who are blindly agressive.

On one hand, following them to their death is a mistake... but at the same time, just leaving them to die alone is generally ALSO a mistake, since it can then leave you in a situation where half your team died without accomplishing anything, leaving you dramatically outnumbered.

On some level, if your team engages, it needs to do so in a coherent manner. In a PUG, you can't always coordinate those things, so you end up in a position where you need to take advantage of what you have. In the case where you have rabble who rush in to their death, you need to find a way to at least take advantage of the enemy gutting them, and do some work while they're killing the lemmings.

But as I said, the problem of cowardly pilots is often just as bad as that of aggressive rambo pilots. I've often seen folks just cower in a hole while jump snipers pick them apart. In situations like that, it effectively just plays to the strengths of the opposition, and is thus a losing proposition.

I agree with this reply. but also I think It really boils down to one thing. awareness. the best pilots are very aware, the worst pilots aren't. an example I can think of that's probably happened to everyone is when a scout locates the enemy, returns, your team is waiting in cover, 2-3 enemy charge in (being unaware) 1 or 2 or 3 step out of cover to press this advantage while the rest of your team have no idea whats going on till the minor skirmish is over. so I say awareness.