261 replies to this topic

[Orion Pirate]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, generalists are usually much harder to play simply from a weapons application standpoint. Mixing autocannons and unguided missiles is a bad idea, as this requires you to constantly have to adjust how much you lead your target, and if you have lasers as well, means you more or less are unable to alpha-strike a moving target, as something there is going to miss because you have to lead the enemy with it, but cannot without making something else miss.

This is one of the reasons why boating is attractive, because a pile of weapons that all have the same ballistic profile are much, much easier to use. The Kit Fox Prime in MWLL, a generalist, doesn't work very well due to the different weapon profiles you have to deal with. Respect to those willing to deal with that, but that's one reason why generalist mechs will go down in popularity.

But this is to your favor, you like things to be difficult right? That will make it more challenging and rewarding to be a generalist right? But you want to limit the easy players... From my standpoint, this as many other posts from you, is all about what you want and what you are afraid of...

Boats for a map? I will just think of each mission as a byproduct of the planet and the particular mission. If I get owned by a boat made for that map, I will adjust, or the Devs will nerf something if they see it as a problem. Whatever...

Really I see what you are saying on many forum posts, but the moment you make a game open and accessible to the public, you have to deal with this stuff, and it seems to me, that will be very difficult for you. I think you would be better to spend your efforts asking for a role play server to be hardcore on. I would support all your efforts in that endeavor, and it would be alot of fun for sure. I am truly sorry about your canon, and your logic based on canon, and your fears in the game and how they will affect your canon. But if you want to play the game that will be made up of many non-canon players you are going to have to let go of something...

[AtomicArmadillo]

NO, JUST NO.With no mechlab there is no game.If they cut mechlab out everyone would go for the mech with the best stock config.I personally would not even download the game if there was no mechlab.

[Hawkeye 72]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Nobody wants to play Cops and Robbers with that little redhead ******* from next door who constantly screams "I SHOT YOU YOU DIE NOW".

I've clearly violated the rule of not entering a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I exit this thread and leave you to captain the Titanic now.

[Frostiken]

Orion Pirate, on 10 June 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Really I see what you are saying on many forum posts, but the moment you make a game open and accessible to the public, you have to deal with this stuff

What can I say, I'm old school

AtomicArmadillo, on 10 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

NO, JUST NO.With no mechlab there is no game.If they cut mechlab out everyone would go for the mech with the best stock config.I personally would not even download the game if there was no mechlab.

Good thing nobody said anything about removing it.

Quote

Really? I see massive amounts of demand to the Founders pack on these forums, which is 60 bucks. I see people building their own mech pods on the forums, which is hundreds of dollars. Every beta announcement is followed by 100 posts of "Shut up and take my money".

Also let me point out that you're basing this on the populace of this forum, which is only roughly 500 people, and are by far the most devoted fans (otherwise we wouldn't be here), and are more likely to spend money on a hobby we've already grown to enjoy long ago.

This is not true at all for people new to the franchise or who have lukewarm feelings about Mechwarrior which constitutes the vast majority of the playerbase. I do not like dismissing things as the 'vocal minority', but that's what that is in this case - the people on this forum are statistical outliers and thus do not represent a fair cross-section of people's general willingness to spend cash on a game they don't really know anything about. This is like deciding how much of the population are Bronys by asking a My Little Pony forum, it's bad data.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Torrix]

Hawkeye 72, on 10 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Really? I see massive amounts of demand to the Founders pack on these forums, which is 60 bucks. I see people building their own mech pods on the forums, which is hundreds of dollars. Every beta announcement is followed by 100 posts of "Shut up and take my money".

Pretty sure we aren't naturally cheap...you make a lot of claims without evidence that contradict forum behavior

I *will* be getting a Founders Pack. I spend ridiculous amounts on gaming, but I don't spend a dime on stuff that is only there to force me to spend for no return other than putting money back in the economy. My hardware alone is enough for me to create a cockpit with (screaming fast gaming machine, large monitor with multi-monitor capability, joystick, throttle, rudder pedals and TrackIR) *IF* my wife wouldn't Bobbit me in my sleep for putting a mech cockpit somewhere in our house. I *will* be purchasing at least most of the chassis that are put out (there are a few that I loath and won't be getting though) and when the clans come in, I'll do it all over again. I'll be buying lots of weapons to see what works for me (since so far there won't be salvage). Like everyone, I'll be paying for repairs.

Paying to use the mechlab? uh uh. Paying for crappy mech variants that have sucked since I first started playing table top 24 years ago in Germany? hehe no.

[Woska]

While I agree that there should be some cost associated with altering your mech, I don't agree with some other points you mentioned.

The hardpoint system is a limiting factor, which is something you should be in favour of rather than upset with. This system means you can't just swap out large weapons and replace them with widely distributed small weapons of divergent types.

Down time for mech alterations? Forget it. I'm not interested in simulating such things in a game that is linked death mathces. If I had an actual battalion to join and travel was simulated and real strategic warfare was possible, then I'd be on board with that. Then you'd have to decide if it's worth the down time to alter your Atlas, when the enemy could attack while it's in the shop.

And the OmniMech wasn't just about swapping arms. The idea was that the mech had modular construction and could be altered basically at will between the different variants of that mech simply by changing the weapons. Not just the arms, but all of them.

I do agree however that clan tech and IS tech should not be mixed. That's part of the reason there are IS versions of clan weapons later in the game, because they had to build their own instead of simply stealing the design directly.

Over all though, I think the mechlab is a necessary thing to have in this game. Even if it is made expensive to modify the mech from default configuration, it should be available. While I understand your preference for canon specifications, for a game to survive the players have to be able to do things their way to a satisfactory degree.

Oh, when I refer to cost for changes, I mean c-bills, not real money.

Edited by Woska, 10 June 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[corpse256]

Xantars, on 10 June 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

SLAPS DOWN A BIG VETO STAMP ...... Nope I dont like it Wait till you get into game before you start making you wild *** guesses about what you think there is and what you want Please...

Even though everyone here has a right to put in their own opinion about the game, I'm going to have to agree about Xantars' post. Trying to change something up before trying out what Piranha Games has to offer is just being over demanding. We will see what happens after the closed beta testers have a go at the game. So far I'm not liking the mech line up entirely due to the fact I'm not seeing anything I really want to play. Hunchback looks cool and so does the Jenner and maybe I'll play the dragon. I don't know maybe till I see like a Ebon Jaguar or a TImberwolf (clan invasion of course) or a Templar or a Cougar, I'll be compensating. But hey just like that song..."You always can't get what you want"

[RG Notch]

Wow I'm always shocked by people who want to remove choices and options, but then again I guess with the way the world is I shouldn't be anymore. I read the whole thing and nothing in there sways me in the slightest. PGI can make money in plenty of ways, restricting my choices shouldn't be one of them. If MWLL is doing it so well, I don't see anything stopping you from playing it.

[Moksha Raver]

It's been a long time since I have played any of the MW games, but I remember there being limitations in the mech labs on what weapons you could place where. You couldn't just plunk an AC20 onto a 30ton mech's arm if it didn't have the hard points. I for one have certain weapons I like and certain chasis I like none of which are out there standard! If I can't customize to some extent, then the game is not what I want! For all you canon afficiondo's, remember that the devs are already "tweeking" armor and damage values! I agree with your point that changing a mech shouldn't be too simple, but it should be a possibility if I have the cbills to do it!

[44th MAC Bagger]

To much words fore a simpel thing.
1)The Mechlab musst give me the reason to my job in my Lance.
2)The Mechlab was the place where i can configure my Mech fore my playstyle as lone Wolf,as part of a Team and at last fore feel good in Game.....
3) we will see how it works if it's reachable if game starts and Players use it........
4) it makes me smile if i see so many hunters shoot on a Fox that no one knows how big or how small he was :-)

[Frostiken]

RG Notch, on 10 June 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

If MWLL is doing it so well, I don't see anything stopping you from playing it.

Only a fool would discard lessons learned from those who came before him.

MWLL has a lot of good concepts and ideas, and I'm pretty sure some inspiration for certain design came from the devs' experience in MWLL, but I'm unhappy with the general direction MWLL is going and the sycophantic behavior of the few people still clinging to it, and the dev's general attitude that no idea they've ever had could be improved / didn't work shows an inability to try to save a dying game. Ultimately I think MWO will pound nails into MWLL's coffin as the last few players leave for greener pastures.

As an example, the devs have constantly refused to allow Clan LRMs to direct-fire (which is canon), and is an important balancing facet. Several mechs like the Mad Dog were constructed to take advantage of this, and IS MRMs were built specifically to make up for the IS LRM's own minimum range, in an attempt to mimic the direct-fire advantage the Clan had. The MWLL devs never gave any real reason why and always locked every thread on the topic immediately. Eventually some guy named HAARP got tired of their bullshit and modded their mod (oh noes!) to show that Clan LRMs with direct-fire doesn't hurt anything, but makes several mechs much more fun and opens tactical options. And it was, his modded server not only brought in record amounts of players, but was populated to full constantly for a week straight. It was a blast.

The developers immediately perma-banned HAARP, ordered the server shut down, and went as far as recoding their game to forbid any fan from ever making a mod of their mod, which eliminated any hope of fan refinement on their already admirable progress. Their immaturity in this manner made me lose almost total respect for the entire team, and in the end, they still refuse to add direct-firing CLRMs.

One of my last posts over there was basically an ultimatum, that if they didn't change things pronto, MWO was going to completely cut out what little remains of the players of MWLL. I basically described the game as not so much a Mechwarrior game for Mechwarrior fans, but a bunch of volunteers who are simply checking things off of KingLeer's list of stuff he wants to see in his game - regardless if it drives players away or not.

If they didn't get the message then, in two months they will when they can barely fill a single server a night.

That doesn't mean the MWLL project itself should be disrespected or that everything it did was awful though.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Bigeye]

Unless the game launches with dozens of mechs this idea would kill off this game so quickly for me. I'd rather go play more MW4 then play a new game that forced me to play stock verisons of 20 or so mechs. BORING.

To Clarify my point further, the whole idea of a MW game for me is the customization. If I want to load up my mech with a stupid assortment of weapons that causes me to overheat when I fire them all off then so be it I can. If I want to run around with 10 machines guns with my fire button taped down so be it I can. The whole point of MW for me is the customization. Experimenting with different mods and seeing whats cool and fun to play. Take that out of the game and I might as well just go back to playing MW4.

Edited by Bigeye, 10 June 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Dhimmi]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

[ TIME LIMITS ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I think there should be limits on how often a mech can visit the Mechlab. Ideally, your mech should be down for a 'refit time', especially Battlemechs, that require time to pass in the realtime before it can be used in battle. Rather, I'd prefer to see a timer for how often a mech can visit the Mechlab and be adjusted, based on how extreme the adjustments really are. Bringing the mech back to the mechlab too soon will drive costs up considerably, relative to how little time has passed since your previous visit. If you make tremendous changes to the mech, you may not be able to visit the 'lab again without incurring a hefty price hike for several days. Moving some medium lasers around might not boost the timer very much - changing out the engine, replacing a major weapon system, and adjusting armor values would drive it way up.

Again, this is best for the gameplay - it encourages people to pick and stick with designs, rather than simply chasing 'flavor of the week' designs. Additionally, again, this drives business in the direction of PGI by providing a CBill sink and encouraging people to expand their mech repertoire, rather than simply stripping weapons from one mech and bolting them on another.

thats the only point that i agree on with you. The other points while catering to a certain (hardcore) population would seriously gut the game potential. cause eventually most people are not hardcore and do really want the option of almost total freetinkering with mechs.

implementing your restrictions would quite frankly imho put the game in a almost unsustainable niché. cause most people that will play the game ( the masses ) just want to fight with giant robots they can customize

[Jost]

TLDRIA, but:

1) Ability to customize is one of the proven features that gamers like. More features gamers like means more gamers playing.
2) Nothing balance-affecting should be available for money and not for sweat. P2W means less gamers playing.

[Roland]

Given that no one who has not participated in the beta really knows how the mechlab will work, and that even those in the beta don't know how it will ultimately work when the game is released, it's silly for folks to suggest that the mechlab must be limited because otherwise it will ruin the game.

That being said, suggestions that limit how much people can use the mechlab are almost certainly not going to get into the finished product. Placing time limits on how often you can use the mechlab, for instance.

The devs have obviously put a lot of effort into making what, to all appearances, is a pretty slick mechlab. They're not gonna limit access to a major component of the game simply because some small fraction of the player base thinks that is might make things bad, based on no actual experience with it.

Edited by Roland, 10 June 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Draggon96]

I support making it horrendously expensive to refit non-omnimechs.

1. This will be good reward for good players , players who save their C-bills. You could even get your own variant name. "OMG that the head of that big Merc Com, I have heard of that mech!" Then the customized mechs would really be special, and be HUGE status items.

2. This keeps it close to the canon. In the canon the only ones that could modify mechs were large merc corps or houses. It was really expensive for marginal gain.

MAIN REASON
3. It gives tactics to the battlefield:
"Well thats an Awesome, I can expect a PPC barrage at long range so I better close fast with my Hunchback..."
Otherwise its like this "Theres a large humanoid robot, he could do anything...better blow all my ammo now."

Theres no reason to call it "Battletech" anything if you can make anything you want. At that point its just another FPS robot game. This is what killed the MP experience for every last MW game for me. Games came down to who could pull the trigger first.

Edited by Draggon96, 10 June 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Dragon Lady]

I'm one of those players who love designing 'Mechs, so I like the inclusion of the 'MechLab. However, I'd prefer it that modifications to 'Mechs should cost both time and C-Bills (with the option of decreasing time by spending more C-bills) Modifying an existing 'Mech should be an expensive proposition. These machines aren't clan Omni-Mechs, after all.

[Eco]

isnt there somthing to be said for HEAT? wheight ? ammo ? lmao all witch arnt hard limits but will keep people from overloading a mech with wepons ... im sure space, heat,ammo,wheight and ect will be parts of the game so thefore let peeps put what the want on the mech ...........if u fire off a full tic and your mech shuts down from heat ur not likley to keep the setup..........ect

[TriggerhappySOB]

TL:DR... Just read some comments seems everyone is of like mind here...

[Diomed]

No, less customization is bad.

I may like the look of a chasis but hate the weapon loadout. I want the freedom to make my MatCat look and fight the way I want it too, and I think you deserve that right also.

If you like your mechs stock, have at it, don't touch them. I don't. In fact there is almost no mech that I like stock, or even the variants. I think I can do a better job creating my mech, since I know me, than anyone else.