53 replies to this topic

[Kaldor]

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

and was given "prison love" several times by multiple participants

CLASSIC

Sorry man, I had to cut that out.

Its not that brawling is ineffective, in fact if you can get there, its still solid. However, certain chassis that rely on SRMs are worthless.

When they finally nerf PPCs and buffs SRMs we will see some semblance of balance return to the game. From there they do need to look at other things like convergence, heat scale, dissipation, and movement.

[El Bandito]

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Okay... maybe not "greatly". I'll admit I took the red pill and have thus far accepted the premise that brawling was impossible under the present game mechanics. That said, I love to brawl and I've so missed doing it... So last night with gritty determination, I stripped my -1X to the bone... dropped a standard 300, 5x Mlas and an AC/20... set my feet and told myself that no matter what happened I was going to brawl and brawl with Authoritah!! So what happened? I will admit my first 5 or so drops were not pretty... I got caught in the open one or twice and, and was given "prison love" several times by multiple participants at range. That said, once I scrubbed my normal approach vectors and rather choose to flank using the periphery, then picking some sniping mech that was a little too separated from the sniper-blob... I would set upon them like Rosy O'donnell at an all-you-can-eat buffet. Clearly players (particularly those electing to play the support / sniper role) were heavily front-loading their armor, because I kid you not I was almost bringing these heavies and Assaults down with a single alpha to the back with impunity. Obviously, as soon as I downed someone they became keenly aware a fox was in the hen-house and the rest of the team would come at me with vengeance for daring to not take may shoes off as a stomped around in "their house"... Yes, I pretty much was dispatched in short order at that point (not with at least taking one with me) AND my presence obviously was enough of a distraction to allow the rest of my team to take the fight to them in mass... End result of my little experiment: 8 wins 5 losses - 9 - 7 kdr.. Was it a tough row? Yes... initially. That said, once I resigned to the fact that the normal vectors would not work and that I had to resign to dying for the the benefit of the team win... It actually became fun to play spoiler. Best maps were Frozen and Canyon and worst were Alpine and Caustic for obvious reasons. Point of this post? / T:,DR: While I can readily acknowledge it was not easy... brawling is not necessarily an impossible role in the present game mechanics... It was a fun diversion from the admittedly stale ranged offering I'd resigned to and "yes" I'll probably do it again tonight. Disclaimer: Mileage does vary and results expressed may not be typical for all users. Please consult your physician before participating in vigorous activities and never insert pointy objects in your ear.

8-5 WLR and 9-7 KDR is not that impressive. I pulled off pure LRM A1 build with 10-2 WLR and 27-2 KDR with no back up weapons. Does than mean it is a good build? No. Pure LRM A1 is not optimal at all. It is just proof that everything goes in pugs.

Like the guy above me said, brawling is not back until SRMs are buffed. Or Pulse lasers.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[DaZur]

El Bandito, on 11 July 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

8-5 WLR and 9-7 KDR is not that impressive.

Was not honestly not expecting "impressive" and thus was not disappointed.

I was honestly attempting to disprove the resigned position I had fallen into... not much more. From my perspective I achieved my desired result.

[Trauglodyte]

Maybe it is me but I've always hated the concept of "brawling". To me, it screams of a playstyle where you're going to ignore any semblance of long range self support just so that you can hopefully, and slowly, wade through terrain to hide yourself just to maximize all of your damage in a short ranged window. Quite frankly, none of that makes any tactical sense. And, in most cases, it requires your team to take all of the attention away from you so that you can get within brawling range OR you end up soaking up so much damage that by the time you're able to maximize your payload, you're nearly dead anyway.

It just doesn't seem practical to me.

[Purlana]

Trauglodyte, on 11 July 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Maybe it is me but I've always hated the concept of "brawling". To me, it screams of a playstyle where you're going to ignore any semblance of long range self support just so that you can hopefully, and slowly, wade through terrain to hide yourself just to maximize all of your damage in a short ranged window. Quite frankly, none of that makes any tactical sense. And, in most cases, it requires your team to take all of the attention away from you so that you can get within brawling range OR you end up soaking up so much damage that by the time you're able to maximize your payload, you're nearly dead anyway.

It just doesn't seem practical to me.

The purpose of brawling is to 1) Distract the enemy from your fire support and 2) Limit the effectiveness of the enemy fire support. (Well that's how it should work anyway...)

Edited by Purlana, 11 July 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I loaded my Highlander 733C with AC20, 3xSRM4, 2xLPLs, JJs and a standard engine and did the same thing. It takes a lot of patience to get to brawling range on most maps. I had a LOT of luck with just getting close on the approach they were likely to take coming to us and freezing. Seismic has made people pretty bold - if you hold still you're invisible in the right spot. Then, suddenly, BOOM. Puking 50 points or so right in someones face again and again and again. Also when you do lose a torso I had people *turn away*, assuming I had an XL because I was in a highlander.

You just have to accept that you're going to die. Sooner or later, but just make sure you do so much damage that the rest of your team can finish up what you started.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Was not honestly not expecting "impressive" and thus was not disappointed.

I was honestly attempting to disprove the resigned position I had fallen into... not much more. From my perspective I achieved my desired result.

I have most of My wins in a Mixed load D-DC, Centurion-A(AC10), and then the Jager40 Cause I just love clubbing baby seals the opposition! But I have not played the Meta in the majority of time I have been playing this game.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I have most of My wins in a Mixed load D-DC, Centurion-A(AC10), and then the Jager40 Cause I just love clubbing baby seals the opposition! But I have not played the Meta in the majority of time I have been playing this game.

I don't get how the meta is even fun to play. I think of myself as a pretty decent player and if I were in one of the top crews and all that I got to do was run around stacking PPCs, I think that I'd just stop playing. Practicing tactics and all of that is fine but there is only so many times you can watch PPCs fire before it just gets boring.

[PEEFsmash]

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Okay... maybe not "greatly".

I'll admit I took the red pill and have thus far accepted the premise that brawling was impossible under the present game mechanics. That said, I love to brawl and I've so missed doing it...

So last night with gritty determination, I stripped my -1X to the bone... dropped a standard 300, 5x Mlas and an AC/20... set my feet and told myself that no matter what happened I was going to brawl and brawl with Authoritah!!

So what happened?

I will admit my first 5 or so drops were not pretty... I got caught in the open one or twice and, and was given "prison love" several times by multiple participants at range.

That said, once I scrubbed my normal approach vectors and rather choose to flank using the periphery, then picking some sniping mech that was a little too separated from the sniper-blob... I would set upon them like Rosy O'donnell at an all-you-can-eat buffet.

Clearly players (particularly those electing to play the support / sniper role) were heavily front-loading their armor, because I kid you not I was almost bringing these heavies and Assaults down with a single alpha to the back with impunity.

Obviously, as soon as I downed someone they became keenly aware a fox was in the hen-house and the rest of the team would come at me with vengeance for daring to not take may shoes off as a stomped around in "their house"...

Yes, I pretty much was dispatched in short order at that point (not with at least taking one with me) AND my presence obviously was enough of a distraction to allow the rest of my team to take the fight to them in mass...

End result of my little experiment: 8 wins 5 losses - 9 - 7 kdr..

Was it a tough row? Yes... initially. That said, once I resigned to the fact that the normal vectors would not work and that I had to resign to dying for the the benefit of the team win... It actually became fun to play spoiler.

Best maps were Frozen and Canyon and worst were Alpine and Caustic for obvious reasons.

Point of this post? / T:,DR: While I can readily acknowledge it was not easy... brawling is not necessarily an impossible role in the present game mechanics... It was a fun diversion from the admittedly stale ranged offering I'd resigned to and "yes" I'll probably do it again tonight.



Disclaimer: Mileage does vary and results expressed may not be typical for all users. Please consult your physician before participating in vigorous activities and never insert pointy objects in your ear.

I'm sorry, but the only personal in-game testimony is only relevant to balance if it is from top tier players playing against other top tier players. You are playing against poor players and reporting your findings. Guess what, they are bad, disorganized pugs. Anything will work.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 11 July 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I loaded my Highlander 733C with AC20, 3xSRM4, 2xLPLs, JJs and a standard engine and did the same thing. It takes a lot of patience to get to brawling range on most maps. I had a LOT of luck with just getting close on the approach they were likely to take coming to us and freezing. Seismic has made people pretty bold - if you hold still you're invisible in the right spot. Then, suddenly, BOOM. Puking 50 points or so right in someones face again and again and again. Also when you do lose a torso I had people *turn away*, assuming I had an XL because I was in a highlander.

You just have to accept that you're going to die. Sooner or later, but just make sure you do so much damage that the rest of your team can finish up what you started.

I think part of the problem is trying to be a brawler only. I would have gone with Large or ER Large over the Pulse, so that I had some reach to make opponents duck a bit as I closed.

[Joseph Mallan]

Purlana, on 11 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

The purpose of brawling is to 1) Distract the enemy from your fire support and 2) Limit the effectiveness of the enemy fire support. (Well that's how it should work anyway...)

Actually its the other way around for #1. Fire Support is to make the enemy keep their head down while the brawlers move in to smash/finish the opponents.

[DaZur]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but the only personal in-game testimony is only relevant to balance if it is from top tier players playing against other top tier players. You are playing against poor players and reporting your findings. Guess what, they are bad, disorganized pugs. Anything will work.

Always someone in the crowd ready to burst peoples bubble...

​PEEF I cannot believe you are truly as elitist as I think you wish your commentary to lead folks to believe. I cannot fathom anyone so bridled with self-admiration to actually be so condescending...

[Master Q]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think part of the problem is trying to be a brawler only. I would have gone with Large or ER Large over the Pulse, so that I had some reach to make opponents duck a bit as I closed.

Most of the snipers will just stand there and take it. Your Large or ER is doing piddly squat compared to the pair of AC20s or Guass or MultiPPC that they're lining up on your CT with a zoom module.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Actually its the other way around for #1. Fire Support is to make the enemy keep their head down while the brawlers move in to smash/finish the opponents.

Actually I can see it working both ways... Kinda' depends on if the enemy you are engaging is dug-in or mobile IMHO.

[Tarrasque]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but the only personal in-game testimony is only relevant to balance if it is from top tier players playing against other top tier players. You are playing against poor players and reporting your findings. Guess what, they are bad, disorganized pugs. Anything will work.

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Always someone in the crowd ready to burst peoples bubble...

​PEEF I cannot believe you are truly as elitist as I think you wish your commentary to lead folks to believe. I cannot fathom anyone so bridled with self-admiration to actually be so condescending...

Mind blowing. I wish more 'competitive' gamers would open their eyes and realize how vitriolic and self-destructive their attitudes are to the community as a whole.

I really hope you reserve statements like that for the internet, I'd hate to meet someone like that in real life.

[Joseph Mallan]

Master Q, on 11 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Most of the snipers will just stand there and take it. Your Large or ER is doing piddly squat compared to the pair of AC20s or Guass or MultiPPC that they're lining up on your CT with a zoom module.

I would beg to differ. As 1)AC20 is a Brawler gun, 2) I didn't suggest a Gauss cause many players don't care for a gun that blows up. And since I see the whole 6 PPC issue as a good balance to doubled armor, I don't complain. It takes 6 PPCs to do he work of 3 on TT. Convergence is an issue though, I used to use a Gauss/ERPPC combo on my Atlas until SRM Nerfs stole my short range punch. I still get 1-3 kills and/or 2-5 assists in most matches. No snipers ever stand an take it from my D-DC!

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Actually I can see it working both ways... Kinda' depends on if the enemy you are engaging is dug-in or mobile IMHO.

Being infantry(retired) I was the brawler so I am jaded in my view

[PEEFsmash]

DaZur, on 11 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Always someone in the crowd ready to burst peoples bubble...

​PEEF I cannot believe you are truly as elitist as I think you wish your commentary to lead folks to believe. I cannot fathom anyone so bridled with self-admiration to actually be so condescending...

Tarrasque, on 11 July 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Mind blowing. I wish more 'competitive' gamers would open their eyes and realize how vitriolic and self-destructive their attitudes are to the community as a whole.

I really hope you reserve statements like that for the internet, I'd hate to meet someone like that in real life.

Blah blah blah you don't like how I sound. It's the truth and you should call a spade a spade. "OMG BRALWING IS BLANCED BECAUSE I WON A FEW GAMES." That doesn't belong on a forum about gameplay balance because it irrelevant. You are playing against bad pugs. Report back when you win a majority of your games vs a top 8man team. Until then, you are merely point out the fact that bads are bad and you can beat them with anything.

Thontor, on 11 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I never stopped brawling. Does that put me in a lower Elo bracket? Maybe, maybe not..we'll never know.

I'm consistently around 1.2 w/l ratio though so it's not I'm losing all of the time.

I have much more fun playing my brawling mechs though... And I'd much rather have a 1.2 w/l ratio and have fun then have a 2+ w/l ratio and get bored playing the same PPC/gauss builds every game.

We faced the Templars the other night on the 8man server. You guys went all brawlers, got a great engagement in our face, but we still won 8-3. You couldn't have done anything better, but you didn't win or even come close because you were in bad, brawler builds. That should tell you something. I honestly think you should have won considering the engagement you got and catching us by surprise.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 11 July 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Thontor, on 11 July 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I wasn't involved in that game so I can't really comment on it.

But I will say that the Templars have two different types of 8 mans. One type consists a group that consistently plays together and thus is better and coordinating and communicating. The other type is essentially a pick up group consisting of 8 random Templar players on voice comms who may or may not be any good at coordinating their efforts and calling targets.

BlackDrakon was in it. I thought he was one of your better pilots. A couple others I recognized I think...

[Deathlike]

The effort that is required to be successful at brawling is a lot higher than sniping at the moment. Most of that has to do with the current meta... but the rest of it has to do with getting the team on the same page...

If the effort required was actually rewarded relative to the difficulty.. you may see more people doing it. The problem is, it is kind of a slow death.

[DaZur]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Blah blah blah you don't like how I sound. It's the truth and you should call a spade a spade. "OMG BRALWING IS BLANCED BECAUSE I WON A FEW GAMES." That doesn't belong on a forum about gameplay balance because it irrelevant. You are playing against bad pugs. Report back when you win a majority of your games vs a top 8man team. Until then, you are merely point out the fact that bads are bad and you can beat them with anything.

In fairness your getting your undies in a twist for nothing...

My post was had absolutely no intent to justify a forwarded premise regarding balance. It was a personal account and observation for my own edification... Nothing more.

That said, through those games I played with and against players that (I assumed) were competitive players based on their forum activity, staunch support of competitive play and such... So either I was the "bad" in their leet sandwich or I was playing with the right groups of players...