58 replies to this topic

[FuriousRGD]

Seddrik, on 11 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

The problem right now is NOT overheating, but convergence (i.e. high alphas hitting one pinpoint location at medium to long range). Increasing heat will affect brawling, not sniping. This suggestion will not help solve the problem, but make it worse.

I agree. instant convergence is a problem but heat consequences could also contribute to making this situation better as well. See my previous post.

If we can get the game where cycling weapon groups to get sustained fire is MORE beneficial than alpha striking, then we win. And I still contend that while we need a few other changes and mechanisms, heat consequences should be a core mechanic to create negatives to offset the positives of alphas and boating.

[Unbound Inferno]

I at least laid my way out http://mwomercs.com/...-balanced-heat/ makes it easier to find later since this seems to be a common trend. lol

Not much different than yours (as posted earlier) but should at least lay out what ought to be done.

[FuriousRGD]

Unbound Inferno, on 11 July 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I at least laid my way out http://mwomercs.com/...-balanced-heat/ makes it easier to find later since this seems to be a common trend. lol

Not much different than yours (as posted earlier) but should at least lay out what ought to be done.

LOL I don't know how I missed that thread. I think we may have actually been writing at the same time or something and when I checked before I started writing yours wasn't submitted yet? At any rate, it's an excellent post and if I saw it before I typed and submitted mine I would have supported it.

[Unbound Inferno]

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

LOL I don't know how I missed that thread. I think we may have actually been writing at the same time or something and when I checked before I started writing yours wasn't submitted yet? At any rate, it's an excellent post and if I saw it before I typed and submitted mine I would have supported it.

I wrote it after. easier to find a topic I start to quote what I already said than to search my posts. lol

But the idea, the way to do it and the different parts have been around before.

[FuriousRGD]

The idea behind what I'm saying isn't new. It has been a core mechanic of the TT game since I started playing in the 80s, so I know the idea has been around I'm sure. I just tried to bring it up again to get some discussion around it.

IMO there is little to no consequence to building a mech that can fire all weapons at once, even high energy weapons like PPCs and even (sickeningly) ERPPCs.

I think the basis for balancing this game is right in the TT version.

Increase heat generation for PPC and ERPPC to counteract all their positives.

Put a minimum range on Gause Rifles like in the TT.

Make overheating consequences that are meaningful so that it forces players to want to NOT overheat so that they are forced to MANAGE heat.

Overheating consequences that MATTER would promote firing weapons by cycling weapon groups to MANAGE HEAT so that they can achieve SUSTAINED FIRE. If we can make it more attractive and advantageous to players to have sustained fire vs damage in 1 lump sum then shugging down it can curb boating and alpha striking.


Heat should cause:

-increasingly slowed movement as powerplant struggles.
-decreased targetting accuracy and slowed convergence as targetting computer struggles.
-internal damage when above certain heat (already implemented by PGI)
-mech stays shut down by overheating longer the more they overheated by (already like this? not sure). perhaps PGI needs to make shutdown mechs stay shutdown longer to stiffen this penalty. Right now you are only down a few seconds tops.

[Unbound Inferno]

You are shut down until your heat drops to about 90% I think. Doesn't take long.

However the heat damage by PGI is pushed back to 120% - hardly noticeable on most builds.

[jeffsw6]

mike29tw, on 11 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

So we introduce heat effects, AFTER nerfing PPC's heat. Problem solved!!

I've never been opposed to that. What I oppose is the few forum posters who think heat-effects can fix PPC snipers or high-alpha issues. They absolutely can't; they will make both of those problems worse.

mike29tw, on 11 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Of course, because it's all those lasers and AC5s CONVERGING their shots that are ruining the game.
Oh wait, they're not.

That is what I think every time I see someone complain about convergence.

If convergence was "the problem," the forum would be a river of flame over the 9 ML Hunchback or the 6 ML Jenner or 6 MPL Stalker. Zero people are crying about those builds.

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Look. Long range weapons are long range weapons. By design, long range weapons have long range as an advantage. However, they by design need disadvantages to offset this.

The PPC and ERPPC do not have enough disadvantages, and pure heat increases aren't going to be enough. Extreme-range snipers don't care about heat because they can't be shot by anyone except another extreme-range sniper, and they have all the time in the world to use cover and cool off.

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

The idea behind what I'm saying isn't new. It has been a core mechanic of the TT game since I started playing in the 80s, so I know the idea has been around I'm sure. I just tried to bring it up again to get some discussion around it.

Where we disagree is that you think adding heat to PPC/ERPPC, and heat-effects, is the only change needed. I disagree.

You would have to increase the heat of PPC/ERPPC so much that a mech shooting 3+ of them will take damage, even if firing them from 0 heat, to seriously curtail the extreme-range meta. What you would do then is totally eliminate the dedicated PPC sniper role, which is undesirable.

If the PPC had a much worse minimum range (180m) it would turn it into the dedicated sniper weapon that it should be. I'm not sure that PPC needs a heat increase at all, but if it does, it doesn't need a very severe increase.

I have also suggested the ERPPC should have significantly higher heat (so you can't boat 4+ without self-destructing) and that its damage drop-off beyond optimal range be worsened, so it isn't still making your CT armor orange when you get hit with them at 1200m.

[Joseph Mallan]

jeffsw6, on 11 July 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

You have to realize that heat-effects will cripple brawlers and will basically have no impact on snipers.

The problem with the game right now is snipers are the most powerful role, and brawlers the least.

I'm not saying heat-effects are foolish, but that the meta-game needs to be fixed, and implementing heat-effects right now would make it worse.

I disagree. Heat effects will hurt players who cannot load up fairly cool running loads. All of My Mechs would handle a heat effects well.

[Unbound Inferno]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I disagree. Heat effects will hurt players who cannot load up fairly cool running loads. All of My Mechs would handle a heat effects well.

Depends one the loadout.

As I'd suggest in mine there is a grace until you hit 50%. At that point you begin to suffer.

Ideally the dissipation is reworked so you cool off faster than you do now, to bring it in line with recharges mostly. Some like PPC if boated would need longer to cool before firing despite the recharge allowing ti to be fired quicker because of that. Others like MLs (if the heat is returned to 3) ought to function well enough up to 6-9 to manage leaving most brawling plans okay. Ballistics and some larger missile racks that run cool have their own balance in ammo.


Overall if its done well, it can work.

[Tangelis]

Been saying this for a long time in regards to the heat system in MW:O. TT is turn based, MWO is real time and thus it is impossible to directly translate the heat system. However, heat issues has always been... Oh I don't know.....A LARGE part of the battletech/MechWarrior world/game and the consequences of overheating really should be reflected more in line with the OP. Sure snipers would not really be affected but that's convergence, pinpoint accuracy etc... ie: a whole other problem. Personally I think the heat of weapons is actually fine, it's the lack of any concern for overheating that isn't.

[Unbound Inferno]

Tangelis, on 11 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Been saying this for a long time in regards to the heat system in MW:O. TT is turn based, MWO is real time and thus it is impossible to directly translate the heat system. However, heat issues has always been... Oh I don't know.....A LARGE part of the battletech/MechWarrior world/game and the consequences of overheating really should be reflected more in line with the OP. Sure snipers would not really be affected but that's convergence, pinpoint accuracy etc... ie: a whole other problem. Personally I think the heat of weapons is actually fine, it's the lack of any concern for overheating that isn't.

Actually, its surprisingly simple. To me anyway.

A Turn dictates time, so determine the amount of time heat is dissipated around a recharge for weapons.

Voila. You have heat dissipation over time and a weapon can recharge so fast. They can fire faster at the cost of excess heat, or follow normal game time.

[Cpt Chattahah]

http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

Just saying... Seems like a fair solution if the penalties are stiff enough. Overheating internal damage starting at 100% heat. Much stricter alpha laws. We'll see. Should cripple the AWS-Q and Stalker builds running 4-6 PPCs. Also, the LRM60 and LRM90 single volley boats.

We'll just have to see how steep the Devs made penalties.

[Cpt Chattahah]

Also, the Devs have to think about gameplay. I think a lot of people would stop playing the game if they couldn't go higher than 50% heat without losing the ability to aim, slowing down and starting internal damage that quick. The damage output would be beyond a nerf, it would be devastating to the overall game pace.

I totally agree with taking out the alphas made of one weapon type the can one shot a mech. Getting hit by 6 PPCs in a medium, dropping off the map before firing a shot and watching the same mech do it to three or four more team-mates who didn't realize how heat dependent he was and run him... Not fun.

Alphas? Nerf.
Over-all heat causing speed & targeting difficulties and causing internal damage under 100%? The game suffers. IMO

Edited by Cpt Chattahah, 11 July 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Cpt Chattahah, on 11 July 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Also, the Devs have to think about gameplay. I think a lot of people would stop playing the game if they couldn't go higher than 50% heat without losing the ability to aim, slowing down and starting internal damage that quick. The damage output would be beyond a nerf, it would be devastating to the overall game pace.

I totally agree with taking out the alphas made of one weapon type the can one shot a mech. Getting hit by 6 PPCs in a medium, dropping off the map before firing a shot and watching the same mech do it to three or four more team-mates who didn't realize how heat dependent he was and run him... Not fun.

Alphas? Nerf.
Over-all heat causing speed & targeting difficulties and causing internal damage under 100%? The game suffers. IMO

You'd need to read what I thought up closer then.
http://mwomercs.com/...-balanced-heat/

The idea is to shift the design of the heat mechanism. Heat dissipation becomes key, and most 'normal' builds players make would allow enough heat dissipation to enable continual use without pushing that 50% threshold in most cases. At most it affects Stock builds, but the application of DHS would drastically shift it.

The slant then with the adjusted maximum heat and actually having high heat cost weapons would shift the game dynamic drastically.

You'd loose your favored mass PPC spam from most and instead gain more overall diversity though intended DPS builds.


The idea would stop shy of about 2 PPC being sustainable, but anymore and its an issue. That (with older ML heat of 3) translates into roughly 6 ML being sustained well. It wouldn't affect most brawling builds that build and plan around enough DHS for dissipation - but the lowered max would limit what can be done for a maximum amount of damage.

The only systems getting out of it are the ballistics, but their (usually) lower damage and spread out impacts from rapid firing is more manageable with the understanding of the ammo and crit requirements.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 11 July 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[FuriousRGD]

Those who are focusing their counter-argument on snipers are taking using a specific, very narrow example but I'll bite.

In Battletech/Mechwarrior you can create mech in one of 3 ways.

There's the long range specialist, or "sniper". They excel at long range fighting. At the other end is the brawler specced for close fighting and then there's the "in between" which has tools for both ranges but doesn't excel at either. Here we focus on the sniper.

The theory here is that putting in more overheating consequences would not affect the sniper. Well, I contend that it would.

Sure, the 4 PPC boat that is at extreme range and is "sniping" would not be "as" adversely affected by shutdowns or other heat consequences. However, they WOULD be affected. They would have to at least slow down their fire.

If they are at high heat, their shots might not be as accurate if targeting was affected by heat consequences or instant shutdowns not only slow their fire, it can cause them to lose track of targets altogether! It also gives more time for their long-range victims to get an idea of their location or find cover.

However, you are assuming that the sniper will always STAY at this "safe" fairy tale range where they are all safe and nobody can touch them.

Like all long range specialists, if you close range with this build it will be at a disadvantage at short range. 4 PPCs has a minimum range. Having 4 ERPPCs where there is more robust overheating consequences and possibly also an increase in heat generation for the weapon in general would make close range fighting with this build a joke against any mech with brawling build.

Thus, it's more balanced than what we have today. The ability to engage in long range fighting with PPCs, ERPPCs, etc is still there but it will have to be moderated in order to achieve "sustained fire" if they are smart. And once brawlers manage to get close they are at a disadvantage if they are specced entirely toward boating anything in the PPC family.

And don't even begin to tell me that if there were more strict heat consequences that most players will still cling to their PPC boats and somehow you will be facing entire lances of PPC boats after such a change. I'm betting that PPC boats will get more and more rare because they would be more difficult to manage due to heat challenges and they are ineffective at closer ranges.

Edited by FuriousRGD, 11 July 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

i agree.. 100% heatcap combined with more damage if you go over 100% seem reasonable.

[FuriousRGD]

Cpt Chattahah, on 11 July 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Also, the Devs have to think about gameplay. I think a lot of people would stop playing the game if they couldn't go higher than 50% heat without losing the ability to aim, slowing down and starting internal damage that quick. The damage output would be beyond a nerf, it would be devastating to the overall game pace.

I totally agree with taking out the alphas made of one weapon type the can one shot a mech. Getting hit by 6 PPCs in a medium, dropping off the map before firing a shot and watching the same mech do it to three or four more team-mates who didn't realize how heat dependent he was and run him... Not fun.

Alphas? Nerf.
Over-all heat causing speed & targeting difficulties and causing internal damage under 100%? The game suffers. IMO

I totally agree! I dont think that heat effects should start anywhere near 50% for that exact purpose. I don't know the exact answer of when heat effects should take effect.

All I know is that the consequences of overheating should be much more of a threatening consequence and have used the tabletop game as having examples of potential consequences. Which consequences to choose and when they take effect is the challenging part here, but I feel that right now there is almost no consequence to overheating.

Mechs only shut down in this game for a few seconds, and the internal damage penalties so far are not enough of a threat for players to take seriously.

Right now the advantages of boating and alpha striking are linked. There's too much reward and not enough risk to offset, and using heat mechanics as a counterbalance has always been part of the game.

It doesn't have to be complex. It doesn't have to be so draconian. It does have to be strict enough to be a deterrant to creating ridiculous boating builds and virtually unrestricted alpha striking. Right now there are almost no consequences to either...except a slap in the wrist in the form of a few points of internal damage (maybe) and a 3-4 second shutdown.

[FuriousRGD]

An interesting idea to implement the targeting computer becoming sluggish due to heat my brother came up with that makes perfect sense.

You know how in most first person shooters if you are firing long bursts the target reticle gets wider to reflect that the fire is less accurate?

MWO's center of the target reticle is a circle. The more your mech overheats this reticle could get a bit bigger to reflect that your fire will no longer be "pin point" but will have some deviation. It will still always hit somewhere within the circle, you just can't pinpoint where.

As you shed heat or if you keep your heat down, you are rewarded with small reticle and ability to pick your shots better.


It makes sense to anybody who has played battlefield or call of duty instantly.

[Hythos]

I think many people are missing a key point to the dynamic of Battletech... and it IS hinged upon the 10-second-turn:

It IS technically possible to fit 6xPPC's on a stalker, but it will absorb 20points of heat and probably kill the pilot. There is no such thing as "abuse" or invalid builds. Having 2xERPPC's on a Cicada is also do-able. But if you fire them both in a single 10-second round, the Cicada should slow by 10-15KPH and be more sluggish until it cools down.

Likewise, an Awesome should be able to continuously (**EVERY 10 SECONDS**) fire THREE PPC's and remain heat-neutral.
The balance with HEAT, can only be done with time-scaling. However, PGI wants to keep it more quickly paced than firing weapons every 10 seconds in order to NOT over-heat (thanks to Bukakefield and Modern Borefare players).