34 replies to this topic

[TheGreatNoNo]

Veev, on 11 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

As to SSRM's, the lock on feature is an ammo saving feature. That is what it was designed for in the game. In this game it takes just as much skill or more than some weapons to get and maintain lock status. It was originally balanced around that feature and goal. The only reason it is so effective against light mechs compared to other weapons is due to hit detection issues.

You just lost all credibility with this line with me.

[Mainhunter]

Veev, on 11 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Lets take an old SRM cat. 8 months ago it was a viable chasis. Not now. It gets cleaned up by a Jagermech with dual ac/20's. When I say cleaned up I mean an absolute floor wipe.

Even a PPC Kat would clean it up at close range not to mention an ER ppc cat.

When you run a ssrm cat it is even uglier.

Did I miss a memo? Everything that stays out of your range will wipe your..... The AC/20 is the strongest close combat weapon in game and you want it to lose versus your substitute rockets?

[Veev]

Mainhunter, on 12 July 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

Did I miss a memo? Everything that stays out of your range will wipe your..... The AC/20 is the strongest close combat weapon in game and you want it to lose versus your substitute rockets?

If someone is boating 6 of them they better be outdoing an A/C 20 at close range. 18 tons used for the 6, 12 Slots and 6 hard points. Not to mention they are putting out more heat than the A/C 20, yes they better be outperforming it when someone is stacking them up. Vs the A/C 20's 14 tons and 10 slots. Not to mention the A/C 20 can deal damage beyond 270 which the SRM's cannot.
If it is a 1 SRM 6 vs 1 A/C 20 then hell no, the A/C 20 should be cleaning house. But when someone stacks them up and sacrifices hard points to use them then yes, it should be a viable option. Right now it is not.
I love it when people like you with no comprehension of the actual meta game try to argue for a change. Whats sad is the devs listen to you and it drives away long time Mechwarrior players who understand how the system is designed. Right now this game is a horrid excuse for a Mechwarrior game and it is getting worse.

Lost One, on 12 July 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

You just lost all credibility with this line with me.

Oh, are you mad because I understand how the SSRM's are supposed to work and what they are designed for?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-6

"Streak Missile Launcher technology was developed and applied to the SRM-2 by the Terran Hegemony in 2647. It was not until around 2820 that the Clans applied the technology to larger launchers. Streak technology ensures that all missile tubes acquire a target lock before its missiles fire. This improvement upon standard Short-Range Missiles conserves ammunition and eliminates unnecessary heat buildup."

That is exactly how it works in this game. You cant even fire them until you have a target lock. It only tracks the target after you have followed the target for a time in order to acquire the target lock. Have you ever used SSRM's or did you buy into the belief that an ERPPC was harder to use?

GODzillaGSPB, on 12 July 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

That's a contradiction right there. These builds are also called "cheesebuilds" because some of them become the dominant built in the game, practically displacing other builds. It kills variance and other builds. Even those build with diversity in mind become unviable. Latest example, though now luckily in retreat: The ppc-boat.

Oh and...you see that? I answered without using any kind of generalization or stereotype thinking. You should really try that.

The game was designed around sacrificing in order to run a certain way. Chasis are balanced using hardpoints, heat, slots and weight.
If the hit detection was working properly and they had not bastardized the values the game would be in much better shape than it is now.
AS of right now I do not intend to spend any money on this game. I am very grateful I got my founders refunded 8 months ago because the game is horribly broken and the devs dont seem to actually be doing anything to fix it.
They might have the rights to the Mechwarrior universe but this is a horrible example of a Mechwarrior game and it is just going to get worse as they listen to forum whiners that lack any skill when it comes to playing a game that has a broad and deep meta game. What I hear from the forum whiners is eliminate the options because we cant have our one build works for every situation game.
The fixes they are doing is ruining the strategic elements to the game and breaking the tactical. They are watering it down in an effort to make another COD clone except it uses mechs.

BTW PGI I control the purse strings for 2 accounts not one. I am the daddy that has the credit card and decides if I am going to spend money for my sons account or mine. I am also in the small % that spends money on F2P games in order to help the devs keep the game going. I am not in need to begging off mommy and daddy for something I want.

I have no intention of supporting PGI with this mockery of a Mechwarrior game. I hope it folds and someone else that gives a damn about having a good Mechwarrior game can acquire the IP because PGI doesnt really seem to care.

News flash to anyone considering buying the Phoenix package, PGI wont ever deliver on what they promised. They are too busy trying to get the penniless kiddies to come play this game instead of a different COD clone.......

Edited by Veev, 12 July 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Veev]

I like what I read here: http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

I like the SRM talk and the survey they ran. I hope they listen to peoples request's on the survey.

[Corvus Antaka]

yeah but balanced mechs are pretty useful more so after the next patch. the SRM splatcat is still pretty decent, nothing to snieze it, it has just been overshadowed by the ppc and gauss meta.

[Veev]

No, the splat cat is usable now. Before this last patch with the small damage buff it was almost worthless. The heat buff doesn't work.
My K2 is running dual ER PPC and a Gauss. It runs fine and still has a good alpha. It does hurt my Atlas and limits it from running 3 large lasers. So I run dual erppc with a gauss. Way to fix the game.
It was tried, it failed time to come up with something new.

Edited by Veev, 16 July 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[Lykaon]

Veev, on 11 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

I ragequit the game back in November due to the numerous issues not being fixed and balance deteriation.

The first issue PGI needs to fix before gameplay balance can be achieved is the hit detection issues. They are there and seems to be an ongoing problem that PGI cant seem to fix.

Even weapons that are determined server side only have detection issues... SSRM's.

Lets take an old SRM cat. 8 months ago it was a viable chasis. Not now. It gets cleaned up by a Jagermech with dual ac/20's. When I say cleaned up I mean an absolute floor wipe.

Even a PPC Kat would clean it up at close range not to mention an ER ppc cat.

When you run a ssrm cat it is even uglier.

PGI seems to be out of touch with what makes Mechwarrior games fun, customization and being able to boat weapons effectively.

But we can talk about paper balance and how far off it is in this game.

Since this game was in closed beta you have broken the balance. It has not gotten better. You have gone so far away from the core rules that it might have mechs and share names, but it should not be considered a battletech universe game.

Sure 8 months ago when all the maps were tiny the close range brawlers were more effective. That was a map design issue and not a balance issue. So PGI's solution was to nerf brawling into oblivion. I will be posting numbers now with explanations to expand on this theorem. But for now PGI please quit using a sledgehammer to balance a game that is broken mechanically and not numerologically.


A/C 2 's range 720, dps is 4 and HPS is 2. 6 ton, One slot. DPS/ton is .66, DPS per slot 4
SRM6's Range of 270, DPS is 2.25, HPS is 1. 3 ton, 2 slots. DPS per ton is .75 DPS per slot 1.125
A/C 5's Range of 620, DPS of 3.33, HPS .67 8 tons, 4 slots. DPS per ton is .41, DPS per slot .8325
A/C 20 Range of 270 DPS is 5. HPS 1.5, 14 tons, 10 slots. DPS/ton is .35, DPS per slot is .5
SSRM2's Range 270 DPS is .86, HPS .57, 1.5 tons, 1 slot. DPS/ton is .57, DPS/slot .86
SRM2's Range 270 DPS is .86, HPS .57 1 ton, 1 slot. DPS/ton is .86, DPS per slot is .86
ER PPC's Range DPS 2.5, HPS 2.75, 7 Tons, 3 slots. DPS/ton is .35, DPS per slot .833.
Small laser Range 90 DPS 1, HPS .67, .5 tons 1 slot. DPS/Ton is DPS/ton .5, DPS/slot is 1
Medium laser Range 270, DPS 1.25, HPS is 1. DPS/Ton 1.25, HPS/slot is 1.25


What I am showing with these numbers is that the game is more complex than alpha burst and tracking. It is about more than DPS and HPS. PGI needs to fix the problems with the game mechanics and roll the numbers back to tabletop stats. They had 30 years to work on balance with the tabletop and it was pretty balanced, a lot more balanced than this game is currently.


As to SSRM's, the lock on feature is an ammo saving feature. That is what it was designed for in the game. In this game it takes just as much skill or more than some weapons to get and maintain lock status. It was originally balanced around that feature and goal. The only reason it is so effective against light mechs compared to other weapons is due to hit detection issues.

Yes I can hit running lights with PPC's, EC/5's, and 20's. The damage doesnt always register. I will be getting video's up of the problems with the game mechanically in the next couple of weeks.
In the meantime, roll back balance to tabletop rules please and roll it forward using a jewlers screw driver instead of a sledgehammer!

I'm not sure what your actual point is.What aspects are you finding unbalanced and what feedback are you providing?

Since we can boat and boat so effectivley that the game mechanics are on the verge of breaking under the strain it's not that or is it?

As for streaks.I can assure you gaining a lock is so easy it allows me to pay a fraction of the attention I would need for any other weapon.My freed up attention is now available for other things like survival manuvers or sandwich eating
You do know that artemis halves the lock time for streaks with zero tonnage and zero criticals used (clearly a bug but it works and most streakers use it)

We can not roll back to table top numbers because those numbers will not work for a real time battlemech sim.

All of the 30 years of balance the table top game has (and I disagree there are some gross imbalances) are based upon table top game rules that simply do not translate to this game.

Do we have all weapons with a 10 second cooldown to fit the table top time scale?

Do we replace player aiming with a random number generator like the 2d6 rolls use in the table top game?

Maybe remove player marksmanship with another random number generator to determineif we hit?

Perhaps we should have an initiative phase where a random number generator determines who can move and when.

Maybe mechs can only move a certain distance in 10 seconds before they need to freeze and wait for the other team to move?

As you can see the table top balancing mechanics will not work here not even remotely.

[Veev]

Lykaon, on 17 July 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I'm not sure what your actual point is.What aspects are you finding unbalanced and what feedback are you providing?

Since we can boat and boat so effectivley that the game mechanics are on the verge of breaking under the strain it's not that or is it?

As for streaks.I can assure you gaining a lock is so easy it allows me to pay a fraction of the attention I would need for any other weapon.My freed up attention is now available for other things like survival manuvers or sandwich eating
You do know that artemis halves the lock time for streaks with zero tonnage and zero criticals used (clearly a bug but it works and most streakers use it)

We can not roll back to table top numbers because those numbers will not work for a real time battlemech sim.

All of the 30 years of balance the table top game has (and I disagree there are some gross imbalances) are based upon table top game rules that simply do not translate to this game.

Do we have all weapons with a 10 second cooldown to fit the table top time scale?

Do we replace player aiming with a random number generator like the 2d6 rolls use in the table top game?

Maybe remove player marksmanship with another random number generator to determineif we hit?

Perhaps we should have an initiative phase where a random number generator determines who can move and when.

Maybe mechs can only move a certain distance in 10 seconds before they need to freeze and wait for the other team to move?

As you can see the table top balancing mechanics will not work here not even remotely.

The ability to get locks doenst change the fact it is still required. The entire point is that the game is broken. PPC's even post patch are the way to roll and running any build halfway effective against them has been nerfed into obscurity. Balance the damage, heat, tonnage, slots and weapon types. Quit with the stupid bells/whistles that make it harder to code/fix problems.
Often times stupid simple is the best solution. Fix the hit detection issues... For the love of something somewhere get the balance changes done faster than every 5 patches. The PPC's became OP because PGI wouldnt get their act together and get it coded at a fast enough pace so they over reacted to it. It is better to have a knee jerk reaction quickly then it is to have one after an extended wait.

[Mainhunter]

Veev, on 12 July 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

If someone is boating 6 of them they better be outdoing an A/C 20 at close range. 18 tons used for the 6, 12 Slots and 6 hard points. Not to mention they are putting out more heat than the A/C 20, yes they better be outperforming it when someone is stacking them up. Vs the A/C 20's 14 tons and 10 slots. Not to mention the A/C 20 can deal damage beyond 270 which the SRM's cannot.
If it is a 1 SRM 6 vs 1 A/C 20 then hell no, the A/C 20 should be cleaning house. But when someone stacks them up and sacrifices hard points to use them then yes, it should be a viable option. Right now it is not.
I love it when people like you with no comprehension of the actual meta game try to argue for a change. Whats sad is the devs listen to you and it drives away long time Mechwarrior players who understand how the system is designed. Right now this game is a horrid excuse for a Mechwarrior game and it is getting worse.

Who force you to to stack 6 Streaks into a mech? The streak is meant in this game for anti-lights duty, the AC/20 for killing big, slow targets. Why dont you stack SRMs? They now packing a punch, no target lock needed and lots of damage.

[MrMasakari]

Yesterday I watched an SRM A1 Cat Annihlate an awesome and a victor one after the other, meh. Figures.

[Veev]

Mainhunter, on 19 July 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Who force you to to stack 6 Streaks into a mech? The streak is meant in this game for anti-lights duty, the AC/20 for killing big, slow targets. Why dont you stack SRMs? They now packing a punch, no target lock needed and lots of damage.

Go read the original post before making a bigger ***** of yourself. I was talking about SRM's. I was talking about boating 6 of them. Something that you get penalized for now.
SSRM's served a purpose in overcoming the massive hit detection issues and miss aligned firing system that was putting missiles out 2.5 seconds after you pulled the trigger and even if you tracked the target perfectly it would shoot where the barrels were pointed at 2.5 seconds earlier and not where they were at the current.

[jakucha]

Artaire, on 19 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Yesterday I watched an SRM A1 Cat Annihlate an awesome and a victor one after the other, meh. Figures.

Splatcats aren't using bugged weapons now so he probably got those kills fair and square.

[Veev]

Artaire, on 19 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Yesterday I watched an SRM A1 Cat Annihlate an awesome and a victor one after the other, meh. Figures.

Isn't it great? I was running an SRM6/SRM4 A1 and a SRM 6 c4. It was a lot of fun. A close range brawler would ****** up, but those long range noobs couldnt track me circle jerking them at 80+. The game was fun again to an extent.

Then again, I would eat up A1's with SRM's when I was in my dual ppc single gauss K2.

Balance means being able to use any weapon to a good effect. A good pilot should always be able to beat a bad pilot. There should not be a noob weapon in game and the PPC/Gauss combo is currently noob heaven. IT takes no skill but has the greatest rewards. Still a step up from the quad PPC noob heaven that was the meta.

Skill scale:
Easiest weapons from left to right are PPC's, Streaks, LRM's, SRM's/Ballistics, Lasers. Lasers are 30-40 times harder to mass stack all damage on 1 point then is the PPC's. The PPC's are a noob weapon and should reflect it in the way it rewards players.

[Veev]

jakucha, on 19 July 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Splatcats aren't using bugged weapons now so he probably got those kills fair and square.

SRM's are still suffering hit detection issues. What they did is put the damage output back to 2. This made each ton of ammo worth more in damage output and also allowed them to have a higher DPS. Better for the SRM's all the way around.
SRM's currently only have between 40% and 60% of them registering as hits even when they do, I should really video record it and slap it out there for people to see. It would be very educational for a lot of idiots.

[jakucha]

Veev, on 19 July 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

SRM's are still suffering hit detection issues. What they did is put the damage output back to 2. This made each ton of ammo worth more in damage output and also allowed them to have a higher DPS. Better for the SRM's all the way around.
SRM's currently only have between 40% and 60% of them registering as hits even when they do, I should really video record it and slap it out there for people to see. It would be very educational for a lot of idiots.

That's true, but by bugged I meant a bug that worked completely in their favor, as did the past SRM-bug in its apocalypse period. And the hit detection rate might vary from people to people. Mine's pretty stable with SRMs, the only thing it isn't stable against is spiders, but that's a known problem.

Edited by jakucha, 19 July 2013 - 04:30 PM.