1084 replies to this topic

[Wraith511802003]

Why dont they do something about the incessant cap whores?

[Dimento Graven]

Wraith511802003, on 22 July 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Why dont they do something about the incessant cap whores?

Need some new game modes, but that's a whole different thread brother!

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Aim64C]

Dimento Graven, on 22 July 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

It's not that difficult to translate into real time at all.

You didn't understand, kiddo.

Perhaps you should try reading more than the first sentence, next time.

In Tabletop - what happened when you fired 4 PPCs from an Awesome?

Did you shut down? No. But your heat threshold was 30... So WTF happened?

You fired your weapons. On the next turn, all heat from the actions you took in your last turn is added against your heatsink value. If you had 20 double heat sinks, then you have 40 heat dissipation - which means you could plausibly stand still and fire 4 standard PPCs with no heat buildup.

Heat buildup in TT was countered by your heatsinks. You could move and fire reliably without ever having to worry about your heat, much. If you had 10 double heat sinks, you could run, fire 4 medium lasers, and see only 3 heat buildup (or 10% of your heat capacity).

What you're suggesting would require a different mechanic. If I fire 2 ERPPCs in my blackjack, I automatically run the risk of ammunition explosions. Hell - if I fire one before I've let the heat from the other almost fully dissipate, I'm going to run the risk of ammunition explosions.

Which is why a direct translation of heat penalties from the current real-time heat mechanic simply doesn't work. It simply doesn't stand up to the mechanics of tabletop, nor does it lead to a very fun and enjoyable game.

Try playing a game where you run consistently below 40% heat.

Especially as a laser-heavy medium or light build.

The heat system needs to be reworked - and I've got some ideas on how to do it, but I need to work out the specifics of it. It would, however, come with a relatively easy to understand UI element and better represent the spirit of the heat mechanic. It has a basis in physics and is so intuitive you wouldn't believe it's a differential equation.

[Dimento Graven]

Aim64C, on 22 July 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

You didn't understand, kiddo.

Wow... How demeaning... 'kiddo', really? Sorry, but that struck me as unnecessary.

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Perhaps you should try reading more than the first sentence, next time.

In Tabletop - what happened when you fired 4 PPCs from an Awesome?

Did you shut down? No. But your heat threshold was 30... So WTF happened?

You fired your weapons. On the next turn, all heat from the actions you took in your last turn is added against your heatsink value. If you had 20 double heat sinks, then you have 40 heat dissipation - which means you could plausibly stand still and fire 4 standard PPCs with no heat buildup.

Heat buildup in TT was countered by your heatsinks. You could move and fire reliably without ever having to worry about your heat, much. If you had 10 double heat sinks, you could run, fire 4 medium lasers, and see only 3 heat buildup (or 10% of your heat capacity).

What you're suggesting would require a different mechanic. If I fire 2 ERPPCs in my blackjack, I automatically run the risk of ammunition explosions. Hell - if I fire one before I've let the heat from the other almost fully dissipate, I'm going to run the risk of ammunition explosions.

Which is why a direct translation of heat penalties from the current real-time heat mechanic simply doesn't work. It simply doesn't stand up to the mechanics of tabletop, nor does it lead to a very fun and enjoyable game.

Try playing a game where you run consistently below 40% heat.

Especially as a laser-heavy medium or light build.

The heat system needs to be reworked - and I've got some ideas on how to do it, but I need to work out the specifics of it. It would, however, come with a relatively easy to understand UI element and better represent the spirit of the heat mechanic. It has a basis in physics and is so intuitive you wouldn't believe it's a differential equation.

I read your entire post several times. I've read this one, several times, so try to remember you're not the only intelligent person that has had years AND YEARS of experience with the BattleTech universe, and I'll try and do the same with you.

As your comments stand, let's keep in mind your caveat of your 4 PPC awesome example, namely, that if you stand still, you could sit there and fire 4 PPC's over and over and over again, with no heat build up.

That point could be easily missed, after all, how many MWO matches have you played in your "4 PPC Awesome" and never moved? With movement would come the heat build up, and yes, the heat phase in TT was works pretty much how you described it, but not how it should in real time. You seemed to be objecting to having a heat affects table because "it couldn't be applied in an RTS", I responded, accurately, that there's already a heat affects table, it just needs to be more robust.

Now, on your other points, considering the size restrictions of the "enhanced" heat sincs (they're not double, they do LESS than double the heating of a 'standard' heat sinc, weight same, and are THREE TIMES the size of a 'standard' heat sinc, so let's compromise and call them "enhanced"), I'm not aware of any common builds in MWO that sport more than 10, as (without actually logging in and trying it myself) I can't recall of any way to have more than 10 "enhanced" heat sincs installed, and still have any meaningful weaponry installed, but admittedly I'm going from memory (I'm at work and can't load up the game or load the sites that would allow me easy searching on it, I could be wrong).

Also, in your '4 PPC Awsome' build, you ignore the current state which is a significant number of the 'mechs out there, that are causing the most concern, are the 6 PPC Stalkers. The guys who were firing SIX PPC's simultaneously as many as 6 times without heat affects. No speed reduction, no aiming/targeting affects, etc. Just sit there, fire wait for refresh, fire wait for refresh, fire, wait for refresh, maybe trigger coolant blast, fire, wait for refresh, etc.


So with that in mind, I'm not sure how valid your argument against a heat affects table is.

Your point on some 'mechs firing a few linked weapons potentially suffering ammo explosion, is actually a valid one, easily remedied by having the trigger for the 'chance' of ammo explosion be one based on the duration, length of time, that pilot keeps his 'mech at/above the trigger point. The heat sincs being a 'always on' and 'always active' process would allow a person to shoot, pause for the duration it takes for heat to cycle down to "safer" levels, and then fire again. As long as the length of time the heat was at/above the trigger point was less than, 3 seconds for example, the ammo explosion trigger 'roll' never activates, which makes sense as for the ammo to explode, it has to 'cook' a bit.

Great suggestion, and on the face of it, not a difficult coding change.

As far as all other heat affects, speed, weapon refresh rate, targeting affects and convergence affects, those can be immediate and not duration based, after all movement and weapon refresh rate are aspects of the energy put out by your fusion engine, cannon explains it that as the hotter the 'mech gets, the more inefficient the fusion engine is (as the heat affects the magnetic bottle as we all know heating a magnet disrupts its function). For the other affects, we're talking computers that are theoretically in the 'mech here, and we all pretty much understand that computers DO NOT like heat, so their ability to function and provide accurate fire, and targeting information is going to be affected significantly, and instantly, the moment the heat hits.

As far as your comment on running consistently below 40% heat. I've done that, and regularly do, in my lights and a few jagger builds I have. I'm not just shooting at the 6 moving pixels from thousands of meters away because it don't cost me much in my ERPPC equipped Cicada. Nope, I'm closing and waiting for the back shots (I wish armor mechanics/hit detection worked appropriately, and I didn't seemingly have to chew through half their front torso armor when I'm shooting a 'mech squarely in his back, but that's another thread).

I'm glad we agree that the heat system needs to be reworked. I think a more thought out heat affects table is the way to do it, and more balanced solution than the current alpha-penalties they've thrown in. I think my suggestions are pretty much in line with physics, and game cannon, as you can guess, I'm in favor of my suggestions.

[Pht]

Stelar 7, on 20 July 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

I did not quote anyone, or create a strawman,..

Nobody's position is that they want a 3d version of the TT instead of MW. You attributed such to the "tt canon folks," and none that I know of anywhere want such.

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unless you agree with me that arguments from cannon table top rules for the way a realtime shooter simulation should balance it's play elements are universally flawed for the same reason apples and oranges don't get compared directly. And that no real argument would use some tabletop rule as a justification. Except I have seen many of those type of claims made, here in this thread even.

... and the endlessly repetitive naked emperor claim.

To which must be asked the question that's never answered, validly or really otherwise: You claim it's impossible to use the tt stuff in a first-person realtime game.

How do you know this? Do you actually have a reason for saying this beyond the mantra "dice! rng! turn based!"

Can you actually point out which parts of the combat system won't convert to realtime and explain why they can't, without using the conclusion of the argument as evidence for the argument?

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So then you are an advocate of pay to win, and massive barrier to entry for new players?

Nothing in my post indicates this. This is simply your presumption.

No, I am not an advocate of pay to win and screwing new players, and it's possible to make things rare without making them P2W and screwing greenhorns.

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Situationally, sure, medium lasers are better damage per ton at close range, and not so hot at long range. That kind of imbalance is good for game play.

So, variety means "unbalanced?"

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But clan medium lasers, as written in TT are always better than IS medium lasers.

So?

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? Wat?

It's a reference to what seems to be the common idea of "gameplay balance," where there can be no genuine variety and everything must be some sort of never defined "equal" - and also to the constant patch/patch/patch cycle this definition of balance causes.

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You realize you just agreed with me right? That if we get clan stuff, as it worked in cannon, we will have to sell all our inner sphere stuff and update.

I didn't agree with you. "as it works in canon" clan mechs are truly rare in the inner sphere forces of most any stripe. Innersphere Omnimechs and upgraded IS 'mechs are far more common.

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Also, check the numbers selling comes with a 50% loss in cbill value, aka waste.

So they're modeling "selling used." They might consider some way to judge player - done improvements and such, and possibly implement some sort of upkeep so people could get more resell value.

[Wraith511802003]

Punishing one platform cause they are doing what they are designed to do is the problem i have. Many mech in BT were built for support and long range at that.

[Pht]

Royalewithcheese, on 21 July 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

That sounds suspiciously like something that involves work. I already do the "delayed gratification + clicking on things" deal between the hours of 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM and don't want it to be a core design feature of a computer game I play about shooting robots.

... here and I thought I didn't say it should be a "core feature." I thought I just mentioned it as something that could be done.

[Aim64C]

Dimento Graven, on 22 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Wow... How demeaning... 'kiddo', really? Sorry, but that struck me as unnecessary.

*sigh*

Yes, being mean is unwarranted. But at the same time, the reality is that your use to me is that of an experience cache or as a unique perspective to emulate in my future analytical batteries. Your value is inductive rather than conjunctive. While it may sound demeaning, the fact is that you're a lime discussing culinary arts with a chef.

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As your comments stand, let's keep in mind your caveat of your 4 PPC awesome example, namely, that if you stand still, you could sit there and fire 4 PPC's over and over and over again, with no heat build up.

That point could be easily missed, after all, how many MWO matches have you played in your "4 PPC Awesome" and never moved? With movement would come the heat build up, and yes, the heat phase in TT was works pretty much how you described it, but not how it should in real time. You seemed to be objecting to having a heat affects table because "it couldn't be applied in an RTS", I responded, accurately, that there's already a heat affects table, it just needs to be more robust.

Heat buildup on an awesome while running would be 3. Running and firing in a 4 PPC awesome with 20 Double Heatsinks (remember the ones in the engine) would net you a heat buildup of 3 after ten seconds. At this rate of fire, it would take 100 seconds of continuous running and firing to shut down an Awesome.

The same goes for a 3PPC awesome with 15 DHS.

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Now, on your other points, considering the size restrictions of the "enhanced" heat sincs (they're not double, they do LESS than double the heating of a 'standard' heat sinc, weight same, and are THREE TIMES the size of a 'standard' heat sinc, so let's compromise and call them "enhanced"), I'm not aware of any common builds in MWO that sport more than 10, as (without actually logging in and trying it myself) I can't recall of any way to have more than 10 "enhanced" heat sincs installed, and still have any meaningful weaponry installed, but admittedly I'm going from memory (I'm at work and can't load up the game or load the sites that would allow me easy searching on it, I could be wrong).

Using a standard engine, you can get 3 DHS into each side torso and about 3 in each arm (assuming no weapons).

MWO and TT differ on how engine tonnages and heat sinks work (even though it kinda-sorta equals out). Larger engines come with more heat-sinks; those same engines in MWO are lighter, but come with the option to add additional heatsinks at no penalty to criticals.

You can get 20 DHS, total.

And, yes, in TT, DHS are double heatsinks - dissipating 2 heat per rather than 1. Since this includes the engine heatsinks, DHS are/were almost always superior to SHS as you would have to load up on roughly 10 tons of single heat sinks to equal the effective heat dissipation of just the engine heat sinks of a mech outfitted with DHS.

The exception to this are some experimental technologies that were put into play before the revival of true DHS to include corrosive metal heatsinks and others that were interesting but caused all kinds of weird problems.

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Also, in your '4 PPC Awsome' build, you ignore the current state which is a significant number of the 'mechs out there, that are causing the most concern, are the 6 PPC Stalkers. The guys who were firing SIX PPC's simultaneously as many as 6 times without heat affects. No speed reduction, no aiming/targeting affects, etc. Just sit there, fire wait for refresh, fire wait for refresh, fire, wait for refresh, maybe trigger coolant blast, fire, wait for refresh, etc.

The system you propose favors heat spikes over general heat balance. Most brawlers are going to be running around 30% of their heat capacity with some minorly extended periods into the 60% range as they retreat to cover.

Simply tacking the heat penalties on top of the existing system in real time means that the best way to play the game is to spike your heat with sudden bursts of damage and drop back to cool down so you can aim again.

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So with that in mind, I'm not sure how valid your argument against a heat affects table is.

My argument didn't ignore the current meta. It explained how your solution would only make the situation for most mechs worse. Because the rules for TT don't translate well into a real time environment.

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Your point on some 'mechs firing a few linked weapons potentially suffering ammo explosion, is actually a valid one, easily remedied by having the trigger for the 'chance' of ammo explosion be one based on the duration, length of time, that pilot keeps his 'mech at/above the trigger point. The heat sincs being a 'always on' and 'always active' process would allow a person to shoot, pause for the duration it takes for heat to cycle down to "safer" levels, and then fire again. As long as the length of time the heat was at/above the trigger point was less than, 3 seconds for example, the ammo explosion trigger 'roll' never activates, which makes sense as for the ammo to explode, it has to 'cook' a bit.

That's arbitrary and not very intuitive.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Heat_equation

Heatsink capacity versus a standard 30 heat capacity for the chassis.

Have a non-ideal barrier between the two (representing mech insulation) and have heat from heat-sinks spill over into the chassis over time. The higher you run your heat, the more bleeds over. The higher heat spikes will eventually build up into negative effects more quickly than chain-firing medium lasers.

Spikes over your heat sink capacity spill directly into your chassis and begin causing problems immediately.

I'm going to write a program that has both a UI for this as well as a real-time simulation of how this would work and show where TT heat penalties begin to stack up.

I'd have to put a bit of a kicker in for the chassis-to-heatsink (because there would always be about 8% or so that wouldn't ever seem to go back to the HeatSinks) - but that's kind of simulating the cooling systems in the first place (which are simply being overwhelmed by weapons fire).

You could have a very simple two-meter UI element for this. One represents your heatsink load, the other represents your chassis heat. From the user experience - the larger your heatsink load, the faster heat on your chassis will rise (and the more penalties you begin to experience). Heat will build up on your chassis until it is equal to or greater than your heatsink load, to be slowly shifted back to the heatsinks for expulsion (meaning negative heat effects of spikes can linger even though the heatsinks have dissipated most of the heat). This relationship will be clear and apparent.

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As far as your comment on running consistently below 40% heat. I've done that, and regularly do, in my lights and a few jagger builds I have. I'm not just shooting at the 6 moving pixels from thousands of meters away because it don't cost me much in my ERPPC equipped Cicada. Nope, I'm closing and waiting for the back shots (I wish armor mechanics/hit detection worked appropriately, and I didn't seemingly have to chew through half their front torso armor when I'm shooting a 'mech squarely in his back, but that's another thread).

I run pretty decently on my Jenner builds - but the fact is that they do as well as they do because I have them bolstered with DHS which radically affects their heat capacity, the way PGI has heat capacity figuring.

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I'm glad we agree that the heat system needs to be reworked. I think a more thought out heat affects table is the way to do it, and more balanced solution than the current alpha-penalties they've thrown in. I think my suggestions are pretty much in line with physics, and game cannon, as you can guess, I'm in favor of my suggestions.

I wish I had the ability to develop scripts for the training grounds that would allow me to show you just how disastrous this type of system would be with a 'single heat bar' solution from which penalties are derived.

Though either system will require considerable adjustment to heat dissipation rates versus weapon recycle times. That's going to be a bit of a head-scratcher, since TT doesn't allow the small laser to be fired more than once in a ten second round (unless you're using some of the other rule-sets that define an alpha strike as firing until your mech overheats...)

[Geminus]

riverslq, on 20 July 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Really? Learn to Play a broken game.
If that's the best you can come up with, I guess you have QQ and Whine macro'd and ready to go in chat too, right?

And if you've been killed while playing a sniper mech, you either suck, or got sniped.
shrug.

You jumped in mid conversation without knowing what we were talking about. I was making a point that every mech has its weakness, and any mech can be killed.

[Dimento Graven]

Aim64C, on 22 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

*sigh*

Yes, being mean is unwarranted. But at the same time, the reality is that your use to me is that of an experience cache or as a unique perspective to emulate in my future analytical batteries. Your value is inductive rather than conjunctive. While it may sound demeaning, the fact is that you're a lime discussing culinary arts with a chef.

Ok, as long as we're going to start insulting each other (how dare you call me a lime, I'm more of an avocado), you're rather more full of yourself than you really deserve. The excrement that that paragraph makes you seem full of could quite literally fertilize most of Kansas...

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Heat buildup on an awesome while running would be 3. Running and firing in a 4 PPC awesome with 20 Double Heatsinks (remember the ones in the engine) would net you a heat buildup of 3 after ten seconds. At this rate of fire, it would take 100 seconds of continuous running and firing to shut down an Awesome.

The same goes for a 3PPC awesome with 15 DHS.

As in 10 rounds of TT play, but there's STILL heat build up, and again, my question stands: How many MWO matches do YOU play where you hold still the entire match?

And also keep in mind, it's not just 10 rounds of constant move and fire THEN shut down (as it is in MWO now), it's after 3 or 4 rounds start having movement and firing capability being reduced, and after a few more rounds more detrimental movement and firing, and with ever increasing chances of premature shutdown and ammo explosions.

It's not the vacuum you're stating there.

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Using a standard engine, you can get 3 DHS into each side torso and about 3 in each arm (assuming no weapons).

Thank you for making my point for me, namely, "...and still have any meaningful weaponry installed..."

What good is having 10 'enhanced' heat sincs in MWO IF YOU HAVE NO WEAPONS?!?!

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MWO and TT differ on how engine tonnages and heat sinks work (even though it kinda-sorta equals out). Larger engines come with more heat-sinks; those same engines in MWO are lighter, but come with the option to add additional heatsinks at no penalty to criticals.

You can get 20 DHS, total.

And, yes, in TT, DHS are double heatsinks - dissipating 2 heat per rather than 1. Since this includes the engine heatsinks, DHS are/were almost always superior to SHS as you would have to load up on roughly 10 tons of single heat sinks to equal the effective heat dissipation of just the engine heat sinks of a mech outfitted with DHS.

The exception to this are some experimental technologies that were put into play before the revival of true DHS to include corrosive metal heatsinks and others that were interesting but caused all kinds of weird problems.

All academic, and I don't think we're arguing any of this stuff, but I guess it's good to have it on record.

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The system you propose favors heat spikes over general heat balance. Most brawlers are going to be running around 30% of their heat capacity with some minorly extended periods into the 60% range as they retreat to cover.

Simply tacking the heat penalties on top of the existing system in real time means that the best way to play the game is to spike your heat with sudden bursts of damage and drop back to cool down so you can aim again.

Your interpretation and guesses as to what my suggestion will result in are noted, but I disagree. I think it will result in more thoughtful play, where people start out playing very conservatively, saving their alphas for more "sure things". As it is now, all we have are people just walking around constantly firing, regardless of range, cover, or any true heat considerations. I'm sure your experience in Alpine is the same as mine, where you can find the majority of idiots out there who don't give a crap that the maximum range that an ER PPC can do ANY damage at all is 1620 meters, but are happily firing away like mindless automatons at targets beyond 2000 meters.

Yes, heat spikes will be dangerous with my system as heat spikes when sitting on top of a controlled fusion reactor, particle projection canons and giant laser beam emitters controlled by computers, devices notoriously UNFOND of heat in much excess of ROOM TEMPERATURE, should actually be. Yes, there will be more 'fire and fade', but at the same time, you'll see a greater effort for cooperative play, even among PUGs, to concentrate fire.

As it is was before, if you as a single 'mech could dump out the same amount of fire as any 4 other non-boat 'mechs out there, why bother playing cooperatively?

There's very little risk to running hot in the game now, and it resulted in an over abundance of 6 PPC stalkers firing 6 PPC's simultaneously, which ended up with us being struck with an alpha penalty that ultimately only affects a narrow range of builds.

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My argument didn't ignore the current meta. It explained how your solution would only make the situation for most mechs worse. Because the rules for TT don't translate well into a real time environment.

I don't agree that it would make it 'worse for most mechs', what it does applies the same set of rules to EVERYONE making heat a concern for ALL pilots, not just those that want to pilot boats. It adds a missing mechanic. I don't believe there should be a 1 for 1 translation of the TT heat affects table into the RTS MWO, but, absolutely SOMETHING should be in place, rather than just a paltry 2 affects:

1. Shutdown
2. random internal damage

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That's arbitrary and not very intuitive.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Heat_equation

Heatsink capacity versus a standard 30 heat capacity for the chassis.

Have a non-ideal barrier between the two (representing mech insulation) and have heat from heat-sinks spill over into the chassis over time. The higher you run your heat, the more bleeds over. The higher heat spikes will eventually build up into negative effects more quickly than chain-firing medium lasers.

Spikes over your heat sink capacity spill directly into your chassis and begin causing problems immediately.

I'm going to write a program that has both a UI for this as well as a real-time simulation of how this would work and show where TT heat penalties begin to stack up.

I'd have to put a bit of a kicker in for the chassis-to-heatsink (because there would always be about 8% or so that wouldn't ever seem to go back to the HeatSinks) - but that's kind of simulating the cooling systems in the first place (which are simply being overwhelmed by weapons fire).

You could have a very simple two-meter UI element for this. One represents your heatsink load, the other represents your chassis heat. From the user experience - the larger your heatsink load, the faster heat on your chassis will rise (and the more penalties you begin to experience). Heat will build up on your chassis until it is equal to or greater than your heatsink load, to be slowly shifted back to the heatsinks for expulsion (meaning negative heat effects of spikes can linger even though the heatsinks have dissipated most of the heat). This relationship will be clear and apparent.

That's really very interesting and some definite interesting reading there, however, one thing that I notice immediately is that it appears you assume the ONLY heat source is the fusion reactor, while it is the most massive source of heat, it is not the ONLY source of significant heat. PPC's and lasers by the very nature of the physics involved generate tremendous heat when fired. Also missiles generate heat from the chemical reaction of their launch, and the same goes for machine gun fire and flamers. ALL of that heat, along with the heat from the fusion reaction is occurring all over the 'mech, where ever weapons are placed, heat generates there. Heat sincs provide method of distributing and dumping the heat to the surrounding environment, not just capturing the heat from the engine.

Somewhere out there, there's an old BattleTechnology issue that has a story discussing the issue concentrations of weapons in a particular mech area without also building up heat sinc capacity in that same location... I'll see if I can't dig the article up if I can, if you're interested, it's an amusing story.

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I run pretty decently on my Jenner builds - but the fact is that they do as well as they do because I have them bolstered with DHS which radically affects their heat capacity, the way PGI has heat capacity figuring.

Well canonically the pervasiveness of 'enhanced' heat sincs is an issue, but it's a minor point. If we were to follow the MechWarrior timeline, strictly, I don't believe the enhanced heat sincs were all that common as yet. I seem to recall it being a few years from now before they were available in any significant number.

So at least from a perspective of the story line of the MechWarrior universe, your 'mech is way ahead of the curve anyway. But ultimately, for the purposes of MWO, it is what it is...

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I wish I had the ability to develop scripts for the training grounds that would allow me to show you just how disastrous this type of system would be with a 'single heat bar' solution from which penalties are derived.

Though either system will require considerable adjustment to heat dissipation rates versus weapon recycle times. That's going to be a bit of a head-scratcher, since TT doesn't allow the small laser to be fired more than once in a ten second round (unless you're using some of the other rule-sets that define an alpha strike as firing until your mech overheats...)

Any balanced and quality solution to this problem will require some work, agreed, I think a heat affects table based on the current heat bar, with various affects being chance based and the result of the duration at/above a trigger point could be more easily worked in, and definitely more easy to 'tweak' than something absolutely brand new.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Aim64C]

Dimento Graven, on 22 July 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Ok, as long as we're going to start insulting each other (how dare you call me a lime, I'm more of an avocado), you're rather more full of yourself than you really deserve. The excrement that that paragraph makes you seem full of could quite literally fertilize most of Kansas...

You say this simply out of ignorance.

Not that I blame you for it. I find it absolutely disgusting when people yield their minds to others.

That said, it's quite frustrating when I can sit there and tell people exactly how what they propose to do is going to play out. They argue against me for hours.

Then they go through with it and it turns out that I'm correct.

Why?

I've thought about it for years. What is it that makes me so universally superior to people in terms of intelligence. The answer is multi-fold. Likely because of genetics and my parents encouraging learning - I've got an excellent memory. I'm still unraveling how it works - but it's not just that I am good at remembering things - I have to look up things I term "arbitrary" - something that isn't derived. If I can't integrate it into some kind of a system, then it doesn't stick in my memory.

Sitting me down and having me do raw memorization of arbitrary nonsense will show me as no better than the average person. I'll get frustrated and leave the task alone relatively quickly unless there's a system or pattern within it. It's this attention to systems and patterns which has strengthened my memory considerably.

Which is why my memory is virtually immune to recall modification. Within the tolerances of how human memory works, I do not unknowingly insert facts or details that weren't there or have been lost. When I recall a memory of a car, and I don't remember the color - I'm aware of when my mind is simply inserting colors and details that aren't there. This is likely because I am not a strong socialite and do not value human conversation for the sake of it.

This systemic focus carries over into how I process information. Since my memory recall is inherently interlinked and interleaved; when I think about what changing variable x or y will do, it is immediately obvious when interlinked facts and figures need to be considered against the change. This leads to a rapidly branching and geometrically expanding pattern of analysis.

Which is why, in a few moments, I can visualize what will happen to a system after someone has described what they propose to do. It's also why I will sit, listen to an opening lecture on a subject, and everything we learn that year be self-evident from what is described in the opening chapter (with those principles making the next class in the series self-evident). Which is why I'm a horrible student. I'll blow tests out of the water all year long - I can't stand to beat the drum line of stuff I already know, and prefer practical evaluations (what can you do to apply this knowledge?).

There are limits to how accurate it can be - but it's relatively accurate in forming predictions about overall function.

The fact that I know how to read means that I automatically walk in and pass a test over subject material I've never seen before. Which is more a reflection of the sad state of affairs standardized testing is in rather than my own accomplishments. But it does exemplify my overall frustrations with the education field. Outside of technical certificates where they actually make people do something as a trade - the whole system has become horribly depreciated.

But that was all delightfully irrelevant.

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As in 10 rounds of TT play, but there's STILL heat build up, and again, my question stands: How many MWO matches do YOU play where you hold still the entire match?

Doesn't matter. 100 seconds to overheat in a running Awesome with 3PPCs/15DHS or 4PPCs/20DHS. Add another DHS to the 3PPC awesome for a total of 16 and you're at 300 seconds to overheat while running and firing.

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And also keep in mind, it's not just 10 rounds of constant move and fire THEN shut down (as it is in MWO now), it's after 3 or 4 rounds start having movement and firing capability being reduced, and after a few more rounds more detrimental movement and firing, and with ever increasing chances of premature shutdown and ammo explosions.

Not sure what ammo there is to explode in an awesome (aside from AMS) - but it hardly changes the reality, now does it?

You can still "alpha" your weapons just fine under TT with many mech setups. Particularly once Double Heat Sinks are brought into play.

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Thank you for making my point for me, namely, "...and still have any meaningful weaponry installed..."

What good is having 10 'enhanced' heat sincs in MWO IF YOU HAVE NO WEAPONS?!?!

AWS-8Qmod1

This type of system would still work in TT, as larger engines come with more heat sinks, inherently (though the MWO versions allow you to only take 10 and pass on the extra weight).

Alternatively: AWS-8TMod1

Though let's keep in mind that Clan technology is around the bend, and with that comes 2-crit DHS.

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Your interpretation and guesses as to what my suggestion will result in are noted, but I disagree. I think it will result in more thoughtful play, where people start out playing very conservatively, saving their alphas for more "sure things". As it is now, all we have are people just walking around constantly firing, regardless of range, cover, or any true heat considerations. I'm sure your experience in Alpine is the same as mine, where you can find the majority of idiots out there who don't give a crap that the maximum range that an ER PPC can do ANY damage at all is 1620 meters, but are happily firing away like mindless automatons at targets beyond 2000 meters.

Rarely will people do that in my matches.

What you propose won't really change that. It will shift people toward all ballistic loadouts or all energy loadouts to circumvent the issue of "well, I exploded because of reasons."

The energy weapon group will focus on weapons like the PPC. The spikes in heat are annoying, but not destructive to them. So what if they can't aim. They fired their shot and it tore off over a ton of armor and are now waddling back down behind cover to cool off.

Ballistics are going towards gauss rifles and AC20s. You'll see a few AC5s floating around, but the meta will largely be burst damage that takes advantage of the fact that you can cool down and suffer few to no aiming penalties.

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Yes, heat spikes will be dangerous with my system as heat spikes when sitting on top of a controlled fusion reactor, particle projection canons and giant laser beam emitters controlled by computers, devices notoriously UNFOND of heat in much excess of ROOM TEMPERATURE, should actually be. Yes, there will be more 'fire and fade', but at the same time, you'll see a greater effort for cooperative play, even among PUGs, to concentrate fire.

Integrated VOIP is the solution to that.

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That's really very interesting and some definite interesting reading there, however, one thing that I notice immediately is that it appears you assume the ONLY heat source is the fusion reactor, while it is the most massive source of heat, it is not the ONLY source of significant heat. PPC's and lasers by the very nature of the physics involved generate tremendous heat when fired. Also missiles generate heat from the chemical reaction of their launch, and the same goes for machine gun fire and flamers. ALL of that heat, along with the heat from the fusion reaction is occurring all over the 'mech, where ever weapons are placed, heat generates there. Heat sincs provide method of distributing and dumping the heat to the surrounding environment, not just capturing the heat from the engine.

Somewhere out there, there's an old BattleTechnology issue that has a story discussing the issue concentrations of weapons in a particular mech area without also building up heat sinc capacity in that same location... I'll see if I can't dig the article up if I can, if you're interested, it's an amusing story.

I would be interested in reading that.

Still - my system still largely emulates that. Heatsinks aren't just one ton chunks of aluminum that atmosphere is being passed over. They represent a whole system that integrates to carry heat from heat generating components to the radiators. The heat-exchanger (radiator) for your house sits outside - and cools the inside of your house a dozen meters away. Battletech Heat Sinks are a similar concept - the heatsink is generally represented, but much of the weight comes from the systems to pipe heat to the exchanger.

But spikes in heat overwhelm the ability of that system to draw heat away. Insulation and other such things represent the imperfect barrier - which serves to try and slow the spread of excess heat - but it does bleed over into your chassis.

There's the potential for a module, there, that would improve the insulation of your mech and slow the transfer of heat from 'sunk' components to the chassis - but I fear that would hinder the new players more than make the game experience more rich. I could be wrong, though.

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Well canonically the pervasiveness of 'enhanced' heat sincs is an issue, but it's a minor point. If we were to follow the MechWarrior timeline, strictly, I don't believe the enhanced heat sincs were all that common as yet. I seem to recall it being a few years from now before they were available in any significant number.

So at least from a perspective of the story line of the MechWarrior universe, your 'mech is way ahead of the curve anyway. But ultimately, for the purposes of MWO, it is what it is...

It will actually be a good thing once the clans come around. That will at least make IS mechs able to compete a bit against the Clans. I can't imagine purely standard engines, single heat sinks, and a lack of endo-steel.

You'd need 4:1 on the Clans just to stand a chance.

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Any balanced and quality solution to this problem will require some work, agreed, I think a heat affects table based on the current heat bar, with various affects being chance based and the result of the duration at/above a trigger point could be more easily worked in, and definitely more easy to 'tweak' than something absolutely brand new.

I just don't see it. You're going to have to implement some kind of indication as to how long you've been over a heat threshold to start taking its effects (or whatever). It's not going to be as clear or as intuitive of a system as something that can give you an analog representation of your heat load and heat penalties that can be understood at a glance.

Light mechs are completely slaughtered under this system, while assaults kind of shrug: "you mean I have legs?" It will polarize builds to adopt all laser or all ballistic loadouts. Gauss rifles will be about all that appears on anything heavy (large lasers will simply disappear). Even the blackjack will likely trade in smaller autocannons for a single gauss rifle and PPC, taking to jump-sniping.

A lot of starter mechs would be completely destroyed. SRM ammo would start to cook off just from firing your basic grouping of medium lasers.

My CAT-C4 would be kind of fun, though. 4 ALRM10s with TAG. PGI needs to do something about their missile behavior. 2 LRM20s are delightfully useless while 4 LRM10s are just about like enabling autocore on anything slower than a hunchback (move a bit faster, and hit detection and/or magic makes your shots useless).

[Vaan]

During the CB, everything was running just fine.. there are no boating or even pop-tarting at all.. The main problem that cause these trends is by PPCs & ERPPCs after when they change the heat value.. Cant PGI just change back to the original heat value?

Edited by Vaan, 22 July 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Aim64C, on 22 July 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

You say this simply out of ignorance.

...blah... blah... self-aggrandizement... blah...

That's because you're just making a guess at what will happen. You can't see the future. You might actually be as smart as you want people to think, but that doesn't mean you can predict ACCURATELY anything beyond the next second, and only 50% of the time for what's going to happen in the next second...

You're coming off as very condescending and extremely patronizing, a sure way to get some very acerbic responses.

You're actually probably no more intelligent than the average America, sadly to say, and this chest thumping you've done here has really annoyed the hell out of me. I'm not sure I'm going to deal with the rest of this crap when you come off like you're god's gift to MWO. You're not. You're just another semi-motivated 'mouth' on the forums advocating for what you may or may not want with arguments partially based on facts and mostly on opinion.

My point was, in 10 rounds to shut down, or 3,000,000,000,000, the heat build up takes place with consequences, UNLIKE MWO where you can build up heat to 99% and stay that way for an entire 15 minute round, with zero consequences.

The problem that PGI attempted to address was a result of the fact that in this game you can have HUGE alphas that can core another 'mech in only a few rounds, with ZERO consequences. However, their solution only addresses the boat type builds, and ignores the fact that as the heat build up occurs, and quickly the way the game mechanics work in MWO, that there's no balancing consequences.

My suggestions takes advantage of quite a bit of what ALREADY exists in this game.

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Not sure what ammo there is to explode in an awesome (aside from AMS) - but it hardly changes the reality, now does it?

AMS explodes, yes, but again you miss the point, there's additional consequences for heat build up... And again, as much as you'd like to ignore it, the other factors don't go away, CHANCES at pre-mature shut down and ammo explosion, ABSOLUTE affects on movement and targeting.

These are something that's NOT in MWO but should be. After the first alpha, if heat is beyond a certain point, certain balancing factors should be occurring.

They don't.

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You can still "alpha" your weapons just fine under TT with many mech setups. Particularly once Double Heat Sinks are brought into play.

AWS-8Qmod1

This type of system would still work in TT, as larger engines come with more heat sinks, inherently (though the MWO versions allow you to only take 10 and pass on the extra weight).

Alternatively: AWS-8TMod1

Though let's keep in mind that Clan technology is around the bend, and with that comes 2-crit DHS.

The factor you're ignoring in TT is, that PART of the balance that we get with the TT version is that there is no ability to pin point aim. Unlike MWO, where everything is pretty much pin point aimed by default, so it lacks all the other TT compensating balance factors. In TT, you had to roll dice and then movement, both target and shooter's, affected the to hit, partial cover, and range to target (which was ABSOLUTE hard limited, none of this solo extended range potential we have in MWO), so on and so forth... Add a heat affects table, WHICH WAS A FACTOR FOR EVERY 'MECH REGARDLESS OF BUILD (again, unlike what PGI has foisted upon us), and you had a relatively stable and balanced situation.

MWO doesn't have that.

That's the problem. That's what the current solution half-baked by PGI doesn't give us.

Let's go with a more defined heat affects table.

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Rarely will people do that in my matches.

Well I guess that just proves the truth of YMMV... The fact is, EVERY time I'm in Alpine I see AT LEAST two 'mechs "dueling" at 2000+ meters with PPC's (sometimes not even ER PPC's), and lasers, and heck even LRMs.

If there were a true heat mechanism to keep in consideration in the game, that kind of stupidity would not occur.

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What you propose won't really change that. It will shift people toward all ballistic loadouts or all energy loadouts to circumvent the issue of "well, I exploded because of reasons."

The energy weapon group will focus on weapons like the PPC. The spikes in heat are annoying, but not destructive to them. So what if they can't aim. They fired their shot and it tore off over a ton of armor and are now waddling back down behind cover to cool off.

Ballistics are going towards gauss rifles and AC20s. You'll see a few AC5s floating around, but the meta will largely be burst damage that takes advantage of the fact that you can cool down and suffer few to no aiming penalties.

Well again you're guessing, you really have no idea, and your guess is based on your opinion. The fact is what we have NOW is heat situation that is "...not destructive to them...", and they don't even have to worry about "...waddling back down behind cover to cool off...", they can sit there and fire and fire and fire and fire with no significant affect until they get to 100% heat capacity and finally shut down. In the mean time, they've fired every shot with pin point accuracy and have the ability to move at their 'mech's top speed, NO CONSEQUENCES.

Add the consequences, make them affect EVERY build EQUALLY and you have a balanced solution. The CURRENT solution forced upon us by PGI does what you say, pushes people to burst damage, because, again, for umpteenth time, there's no consequences for driving your heat to 99% and staying that hot until the end of the match.

That makes no sense.

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Integrated VOIP is the solution to that.

You don't need VOIP to concentrate fire, all you have to do is look at the little triangles to figure out which enemy is targeted. Does anyone bother? Not that many people do.

And are there actual plans to build integrated VOIP into MWO? I thought not, but I haven't been reading all the posts from them, so maybe there is. Because it would need to be an INTEGRATED VOIP to be balanced, otherwise you've got users of C3, Ventrilo, TeamSpeak, et al., and for PUG'ing when most people are grouped at a max of 4 at a time, making sure all 8 random people are using the same VOIP app is near impossible, that much more so when we get the 12v12, so I wouldn't just flippantly toss out VOIP as the end all be all.

Warriors will have to have a game mechanic induced REASON to think in a non-rambozo style and learn to work together, with or without a VOIP. Not being allowed to deliver the same amount of damage as 4 other 'mechs MIGHT push them in that direction.

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I would be interested in reading that.

Ok, I'll trudge up to the attic and see if I can dig the issue out...

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Still - my system still largely emulates that. Heatsinks aren't just one ton chunks of aluminum that atmosphere is being passed over. They represent a whole system that integrates to carry heat from heat generating components to the radiators. The heat-exchanger (radiator) for your house sits outside - and cools the inside of your house a dozen meters away. Battletech Heat Sinks are a similar concept - the heatsink is generally represented, but much of the weight comes from the systems to pipe heat to the exchanger.

But spikes in heat overwhelm the ability of that system to draw heat away. Insulation and other such things represent the imperfect barrier - which serves to try and slow the spread of excess heat - but it does bleed over into your chassis.

There's the potential for a module, there, that would improve the insulation of your mech and slow the transfer of heat from 'sunk' components to the chassis - but I fear that would hinder the new players more than make the game experience more rich. I could be wrong, though.

Yes, agreed, it's a heat exchange system, typically 'mech wide, which is why in both TT and MWO if you have heat sincs in the legs, and the legs are deep enough in the water, your entire 'mech gets a cooling boost, not just the legs. But weapons generate their own heat when used, it's not just the fusion engine generating heat.

In TT you could light forests and cities on fire and 'mechs standing in buring woods/buildings received heat penalties, and why flamers could be such an incredibly strategic weapon. Flamers could potentially push your enemy's heat to a point where they'd start to lose speed, targeting issues, ammo explosions, and/or premature shutdowns.

In MWO, due to the incredibly inadequate heat affects table, the flamer is a joke of a weapon.

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It will actually be a good thing once the clans come around. That will at least make IS mechs able to compete a bit against the Clans. I can't imagine purely standard engines, single heat sinks, and a lack of endo-steel.

You'd need 4:1 on the Clans just to stand a chance.

Initially that was the case, as the IS was encountering an enemy they didn't understand, using tactics they'd never considered, and fielding weapons only matched by LosTech equipped units.

However, cannon (all those science fiction novels) showed us that skilled IS pilots, and/or, 'out of the box' tactics could win the day against Clan tech, and clan battle ideology.

But then, we start to get involved in a subject that's more 'religion' than substantive to the discussion we're having here.

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I just don't see it. You're going to have to implement some kind of indication as to how long you've been over a heat threshold to start taking its effects (or whatever). It's not going to be as clear or as intuitive of a system as something that can give you an analog representation of your heat load and heat penalties that can be understood at a glance.

Just need to put some tick marks on the heat bar just so you know where you're at, at that point, you'll SEE the affects happening, i.e.: your speed will drop (just like it does when you're walking up/down a certain degree hills), your target reticule will drift in unexpected ways, like it currently does (though at much more accelerated rate than what I envision for this particular affect) when you jump, and for de-convergence, like it already does when you switch your aim from a far target to a close target (or visa versa) and fire with no time to allow your targeting computer to adjust to the new range.

All that and/or add 'bitching betty' reports just like for incoming missiles, critical damage, shutting down, etc.

The UI mechanic doesn't have to be grandiose.

(I think this forum has a quote count bug and I'll have to post the rest of my reply in another post...)

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Vaan, on 22 July 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

During the CB, everything was running just fine.. there are no boating or even pop-tarting at all.. The main problem that cause these trends is by PPCs & ERPPCs after when they change the heat value.. Cant PGI just change back to the original heat value?

In CB we had no 'mechs that were viable 'pop-tarts. It wasn't until the Highlander chassis was made available that there was 'mech that could effectively pop-tart.

All other previously available jump capable chassis had some vulnerability, mostly it was light 'mechs that you could afford to take a few pot shots from while you shot them out of the air, or extremely easily killed chassis like the Catapult and Cataphract where a few torso shots disabled/killed them in short order.

The Highlander, and later the Blackjack, were chassis that could jump, carry a crap ton of armor, a large ballistic weapon, or multiple PPC's, and take torso hits without crumpling like used tissue paper.

(continued from above...)

Aim64C, on 22 July 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Light mechs are completely slaughtered under this system, while assaults kind of shrug: "you mean I have legs?"

You're overstating it. Light pilots will have to keep heat in mind as much as everyone else, but it's no where near the death knell you're trying to make it out, especially since most of the more common light builds I've seen in game can be extremely effective at low heat.

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It will polarize builds to adopt all laser or all ballistic loadouts. Gauss rifles will be about all that appears on anything heavy (large lasers will simply disappear). Even the blackjack will likely trade in smaller autocannons for a single gauss rifle and PPC, taking to jump-sniping.

You're guessing here, you have no idea what the general populace will do. Pretty much already we have a polarized in game 'mech population: MOSTLY Heavies and assaults that can deliver big punches (nearly constantly), and a few lights and a rare medium that can move fast and NOT be an easy target, looking to snipe backs, and fade away.

The majority of 'mechs the matches I played tonight were assault 'mechs that were PPC/AC or PPC/Gauss carriers, with a few LRM boats, and a few lights/mediums tossed in for laughs.

It can't get much more polarized, and I believe that a heat affects table will actually let us see MORE differing builds, focusing on being able to stay cool, perhaps we'll see the onset of flamer builds that exist as something that can actually be functional as opposed to "wee... it looks cool and aren't I a funny ******* for driving one..." situation we have now.

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A lot of starter mechs would be completely destroyed. SRM ammo would start to cook off just from firing your basic grouping of medium lasers.

There would be an increasing chance for ammo explosion, IF, the pilot ignored his heat and maintained it at/above the trigger points. Bitching Betty could certainly help keep us informed when we're approaching/beyond that point.

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My CAT-C4 would be kind of fun, though. 4 ALRM10s with TAG. PGI needs to do something about their missile behavior. 2 LRM20s are delightfully useless while 4 LRM10s are just about like enabling autocore on anything slower than a hunchback (move a bit faster, and hit detection and/or magic makes your shots useless).

I drove my A1 (2 LRM 20's and 4 SSRM's) a few rounds and was able to kill off a few dancing spiders at long range, yeah LRMs have always had problems, though they're definitely better off than they had been for the longest time. The speed increase makes them a much more viable weapon, and hit detection has ALWAYS been problematic in this game ('mechs with odd/nearly broken hit detection: Commando, Spider, Jenner, Hunchback, Centurian for sure are 'mechs that are surviving more hits than they should be, while the Raven, Cicada, Jager, Catapult, Cataphract, Quickdraw, and Awesome are all notoriously easily to kill), but those are two whole other conversations...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 22 July 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[Wraith511802003]

How bought instead of nerfing mechs that should be feared players play more tactically and understand there is consequences for not doing so. I light mech should never survive and encounter with an assault.
Forcing better players to adapt to the lack of tactics other players is wrong on all levels.
This is not farmville there are not guarantees wins.
AN please stop demanding diversity we get enough that crap n the real world.

Edited by Wraith511802003, 23 July 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Cybertek]

Wraith511802003, on 23 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

How bought instead of nerfing mechs that should be feared players play more tactically and understand there is consequences for not doing so. I light mech should never survive and encounter with an assault.
Forcing better players to adapt to the lack of tactics other players is wrong on all levels.
This is not farmville there are not guarantees wins.
AN please stop demanding diversity we get enough that crap n the real world.

I love this and agree so much with it. I agree a light mech should never survive and encounter with an assault, and that is all I here the people complaining about. Learn to move, learn to take cover don't let yourself get out into the open. I used to run a 4 PPC Stalker, now all I run is 2PPC, 2LL, and AC/10 whicn now works just as well if not better, I still one shot lights if I get a good shot off. I can't tell you how many games I have lights and mediums run up straight at me firing, in my stalker, I don't bother turning or moving cause I know I will survive that match up. Hell when I am in my Ravens and see a Assault I run and try to get behind them and start doing straffing runs around them, not line up infront and stand and fire. Also if you in a light work together 3 lights could take down a assault, just need to work together.

[mytilus edulis]

Perhaps the devs don't think this is worth listening to, just noise, but at least a handful of the players I know have quit playing because they don't understand this new heatscale thing and we failed to explain it to them in a short amount of time. Anecdotal but whatever, it's a bummer for our group of friends.

[riverslq]

Heatscales make as much sense as a ****** in a catholic church on altar boy day.
it's not like they're gonna get pregnant.

[Victor Morson]

They finally got people to stop talking about Ghost Heat for now, by doing something even worse with 3rd person, I guess.

[Karl Streiger]

Victor Morson, on 21 August 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

They finally got people to stop talking about Ghost Heat for now, by doing something even worse with 3rd person, I guess.

The idea behind is as old as humanity.
In old rom it was bread and circuses

In MWO - you had the Phoenix Package - and the missing content
than you had phantom heat - and 3PV (even if i still think that phantom heat is one of the worst - but somehow working - mechanics i have ever seen)