1084 replies to this topic

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

I think SRM6 alpha should by 2+ not 3+. I've voted for a 2.0/missile dmg buff because that's where SRMs should be. If there's a problem with them wrecking big mechs raise the cooldown instead.

0okami, on 13 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

OH MY GAWD!!

The poll is going in favor of buffing to 2.0 damage...
Well I guess we all now what that means...

EVERYONE!! MAN YOUR SPLATCATS!!

THIS IS THE DAY OF RECKONING!
FOR SOME IT IS A DAY OF TERROR!
BUT FOR OTHERS IT IS A DAY OF SALVATION!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY THE FURY OF 6xSRM6!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY AN APLHA OF 72 POINTS OF DAMAGE!
CRIPPLE THE OPPOSITION!
TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING!
THIS DAY MARKS THE BEGINNING OF SRM-GEDDON!
THE END OF ALL THAT IS LONG RANGE!

There is a solution even if dmg is buffed to 2.0. see my post above.

Warge, on 11 July 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

They should done something with convergence, not with this Max Alpha...

Remove Arm-lock.

[Sephlock]

Brown Hornet, on 13 July 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

I think SRM6 alpha should by 2+ not 3+. I've voted for a 2.0/missile dmg buff because that's where SRMs should be. If there's a problem with them wrecking big mechs raise the cooldown instead.

Why do you hate the Centurion?

[hammerreborn]

Deathlike, on 13 July 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Methinks someone is overreacting to the dreaded revival of the Splatcat...

For a mech that MUST be under 270m to be effective... you can still be countered by Seismic for awareness (especially if you lack that altogether). Those things don't even really affect the PPC meta considering if you can already counter the AC40 Jagers and K2 with PPCs... this is nothing.

I'm pretty sure the streakcat will surpass the splatterpult in use. Especially since it doesn't look like streaks are getting a heat penalty (unless that's being grouped in with the SRM2).

2.0 streakapults are going to demolish lights with their superior "skill"

Edited by hammerreborn, 13 July 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Another example of killing mech variant uniqueness. Let's compare JM6-S and JM6-DD. In order to make this two variants different, I have to use "fill all hardpoints" tactic. But! There is a big problem here. I have to use AC/2 and MDL in order to achieve this goal. Why? SML is not viable at all, cuz it has too small range. And MG has too low damage. MDL is ok, but AC/2 is not ideal: it has too low tonnage efficiency - 6 ton+at least 1 ton of ammo per weapon = 7 ton, and too low heat efficiency - 2hps. I.e. it's equivalent of PPC in terms of weight and hps. So, if I will boat my Jagger with AC/2, then it will be very hot and fragile variant, cuz there will be no room for extra heatsinks and armor. But now it at least viable. AC/2 and MDL cap won't be lesser, then 6, I think, but lowering heatcap to 100% will actually kill this variants - I will have to use more heat effective weapons, like AC/5 and that will mean, I won't be able to make JM6-S and JM6-DD different and unique. Ask yourself, will I to buy/play this variants, if laserboat variants, like Firebrand, have decent firepower and has enough room for extra heatsinks and even extra armor? No, I won't. So if you're nerfing heatcap, you should buff balistics too. Lower weight of AC/2 or make something viable between MG and AC/2 then. Something at least at MDL level of efficiency - with 1-2 tons of weight, 1.25-1.5 dps and medium range. Gatling cannon maybe?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Sephlock, on 13 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Why do you hate the Centurion?

My favourite mech actually and YES I do run my CN9-A with 3SRM6 but my heat efficiency is 1.50. I also run a D-DC with 3SRM6 but with a dmg buff I think a heat and cooldown nerf is required. Personally, I don't care if PGI say that SRM6s wreck big mechs. If you wanna run a big target, then SRM6s are the best missile weapon to use. They're still not going to wreck a mech (oh, a funny!) like AC40s for GR30s from range.

[Victor Morson]

Brown Hornet, on 14 July 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

My favourite mech actually and YES I do run my CN9-A with 3SRM6 but my heat efficiency is 1.50. I also run a D-DC with 3SRM6 but with a dmg buff I think a heat and cooldown nerf is required. Personally, I don't care if PGI say that SRM6s wreck big mechs. If you wanna run a big target, then SRM6s are the best missile weapon to use. They're still not going to wreck a mech (oh, a funny!) like AC40s for GR30s from range.

The balance team doesn't understand the game, period. We've explained and explained and explained and they go "Yep yep we're listening.. here's our dumb idea, tough if you think it's terrible." And it is, because again, see the previous sentence.

Given Paul personally posted this update, I will go as far as to say he doesn't understand the game at all either. They are trying to repair an ecosystem they simply can't understand.

[Warge]

Brown Hornet, on 13 July 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Remove Arm-lock.

Wtf?

[Jack Starborn]

I voted "Yes" because SRMs are unplayable now.

[arghmace]

Warge, on 14 July 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Wtf?

Arm lock makes all your weapons hit the exact same spot. Pin point damage wasn't nearly as big a problem earlier when arm lock was not present.

[Brut4ce]

Victor Morson, on 12 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

The Downfall of PGI, Part Deux:

LMAO! I laughed so hard with that one! Victor, You've got talent!

[Kmieciu]

miSs, on 12 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Regarding the weapon convergence skill in the Pilot Tree, we will be implementing something else in that spot in the near future.

It seems that we're stuck with perfect convergence for now. But that does not mean we could not balance all the weapons in this environment.
Do you remember the time after HSR for lasers was introduced? Despite having the same stats as they do now, and being as pinpoint as they are now, PPC were underpowered against large lasers. Everyone used large lasers till the PPC got HSR. That means that if we make PPCs less efficient, some of the people will go back to lasers.
With PPC@10 heat and ERPPC@15 heat, you would pay a big price for that instant damage.

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 July 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Warge]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Arm lock makes all your weapons hit the exact same spot.

Thank you, man. Arm lock off will solve all the problems with pinpoint damage. Should tell others because they do not know.

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Pin point damage wasn't nearly as big a problem earlier when arm lock was not present.

Also there were no Jaggers present.

[arghmace]

Warge, on 14 July 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

Arm lock off will solve all the problems with pinpoint damage.

Did I say that? It is one of the things that has let to current meta. Not the most important one, but an ingredient all the same.

[Warge]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Did I say that? It is one of the things that has let to current meta. Not the most important one, but an ingredient all the same.

You said so as it's major problem.
Ok, all on forums talk about the same thing so there is no need to repeat it again.

[Orkimedes]

Zyllos, on 11 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Bad change for heat for a bad meta game choice...

I 100% disapprove of this change...

Increasing heat for firing multiple weapons, is not going to work. It doesn't even matter if they are the same or not, right now, the system is easy to circumvent because it only looks for the same, but once that change happens, it will still not provide the outcome you are wanting, PGI.

Players are just going to find that sweet spot and still place pin point damage onto a location of their choosing. Everything else will lag behind because either you can't fire all your weapons and hit a single location then torso twist away, or you will fire once and shutdown.

Players who want to win, which is technically everybody, only want's their damage to hit where they aim. Any system that forces players to have to aim for a long time (by forcing to chain fire or fire several small groups) will fall to the wayside because they can't control where enemy players can hit them.

The whole metagame is based on the fact that if your not placing damage onto a location that will either kill or maim a target, it's pointless damage. And the reasoning behind this is two fold:

• You can torso twist away without hurting your own DPS and aiming
  
• Pin point accuracy allows alpha strikes to aim all their damage onto a single point

As long as you have pin point accuracy, players will gravitate to loadouts that allows for alpha strikes to hit a single locations instantly and allow you to torso twist/dodge away waiting on cooldowns.


MechWarrior is built around the idea that you face off against your enemy. You lay down constant barrages on your target, not really attempting to have them land on specific areas unless you can take the time to aim to hit on those specific areas.

But MWO's mechanics are setup to force players to only want to hit specific areas because there is no penalty for doing so. Alpha striking weapons doesn't change this fact.

I hope you see that this system is extremely flawed and understand that weapon's fire has to spread it's damage out more to bring balance to entire weapon systems. As long as pin point accuracy exists, MWO will be continuouly plagued by this problem.

It has happened in all previous MW games, why would it not happen in MWO?

Behold the awful truth. The only solution is to somehow remove pinponit damage - preferably without dicerolls.
Now, remember the Hunchback ballistic weapon veering off-crosshair? THAT IS THE SOLUTION. A consistent deviation from the crosshair. the easiest way to do this? Instead of having a variable convergence (the weapons converge at the distance your pointer is targeting) make all weapons converge at a constant range. It might even reduce server load. Simple, effective, and probably not too hard to at least try out. That's what testing is for.

[MustrumRidcully]

Jakob Knight, on 12 July 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

But where did those uber-configs come from in the first place? Someone had to figure it out. And then, just putting the config on your mech does not hand you victory...you have to learn how to use it, or you will still fail when your opponent hits the flaws in your design.

That's what I think of when I hear people say:

"Nah, it's no big deal, I tried it and it wasn't good". Even a overpowered build can require some adjustment to learn its kinks and how to really maximize its potential.

[MustrumRidcully]

Aim64C, on 12 July 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

That just means the penalty of failure is not death. Thus, one has the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them.

Why you would get enjoyment out of a shooter where you are not killing things is beyond me.

You were the kid who went to a steak house with his parents and ordered the grilled cheese all the time, weren't you?



MechWarrior 3 is an interesting example of what happens when you don't embrace restriction.

MechWarrior 4, I believe, had it the most correct in terms of balancing restriction and customization. It wasn't perfect - but many of the chassis had a personality that allowed you to play and experiment with it while keeping it from abusing the weapons that were more challenging to balance within a world of limitless customization.

The reason the current system is so broken is because 2 medium lasers can become 2PPCs (and, arguably, should, depending upon what mech you're using and what your play style is), while a PPC cannot become 2 or 3 medium lasers.

Are you certain that's really the problem?

I think if it is a problem is it just because PPCs deal damage in a single projectile, and lasers in a beam. If you used mechwarrior 3 stats for weapons, this would still lead to the same problems we have, just with a few different weapon configs.
"Yeah, 3 PPC Awesome is neat, but a bit hot. I switched to 9 ML Awsome and can basically instagib light mechs and can kill anything in 3 salvos, and can still wear full armour and a huge engine".

The problem is still that convergence + group fire means you really, really want to boat weapons, so you can get the most out of this synergy.

PGI was clever when they decided that lasers would have a beam duration. That automatically lowered their precision, even if boated.


What I agree with is that one of the biggest hindrance of many hard point limitation models I've seen alluded to is that if you limit too hard, you can only downgrade, but not upgrade, which in the end means you can't change anything, because what do you with freed up weight if you can't add meaningful weight elsewhere?

[PhoenixFire55]

Heat penalties aren't making any sense and won't change anything anyway. Getting rid of perfect auto convergence is the only way you'll balace 'boats'. Also ALL missiles need a huge damage buff but also a huge spread increase. SRM packs are too tight and LRM packs are too tight. SSRMs and LRMs need to start doing damage to all mech parts with equal chance because now its 90% CT damage.

[Elizander]

It would be nice if the limit on Large Lasers was increased to around 3 or 4 before giving a penalty. Even if they are boated players can spread the damage decently due to it being a beam duration weapon. I don't think I've ever heard too many complaints about Large Laser boats.

I think further separation between the PPC and ER PPC are needed. It would be good to have the PPC projectile speed be reduced to 1600 m/s. This makes it better than the Gauss Rifle's 1200 m/s but cannot be paired with the ER PPC's 2000 m/s. This also makes the ER PPC a 'better' weapon to make up for its high heat as range doesn't appear to be much of a benefit to make up for the heat.

Something similar to this should probably be done for the ER Large Laser (and ER Lasers in general) to differentiate them from regular lasers instead of the heat. I can only propose that the beams do higher front-loaded damage instead of an even spread (like more intense at the start then slowly dies out) as an additional benefit to the heat increase. Instead of an ER Large Laser doing 0.9 damage per 0.1 seconds (for example), it can deal 2.7 damage at the first tick and then less as the beam goes on.

Large Laser Ticks (over 1 second)

0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9/0.9

ER Large Laser Ticks (over 1 second)

2.7/1.8/0.9/0.9/0.45/0.45/0.45/0.45/0.45/0.45

This will allow you to differentiate the ER variety of lasers from regular and pulse variants of the weapon.

[EchoMike]

Much of my thoughts on feed back have been already mentioned in the 40+ pages...however If PGI is going to go ahead with their silly heat scale max alpha nonsense they could at least look in to nerfing the PPC/ERPPC a wee bit. As mentioned, even with the PPC/ERPPC family grouping for heat scale, competitive players will just switch to 2X PPC + Gauss to make a 35 damage bullet. The PPCs do too much damage for a infinite ammo weapon relative to their heat output and projectile speed. In my opinion to reduce the effectiveness PGI should: Add at least +1 heat to the PPC/ERPPC, reduce the projectile speed by 10%-20%, or incorporate a 'splash' mechanic that will would distribute 20%-25% of it's damage on to an adjacent hit box.

Edited by EchoMike, 14 July 2013 - 04:17 PM.