124 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

On removing group fire... Forget about it. You don't like me shooting you with everything I got? Tough! I design my Mechs to throw the most damage with the best heat I can. I play to win, not to make you feel good.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 August 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

...I play to win, not to make you feel good.

I thought you played to kill?

[Snow Drift]

Without reading the volumes of information in the original post, I'd like to say I think they are right on two key points I picked up on. I've made similar comments on my own posts about the first one.

1: Weapons fired within a few second window (AKA, an Alpha/group fire) should not have a very good chance of all hitting the same location on a target.

2: Until this happens, you can't properly balance much of anything in the game.

There's plenty of suggestions on how to implement 1, but 2 is very important for the devs to realize. For 1, I kinda like the forced chain fire or the very slow convergence ideas, but that's not the real issue right now.

At the moment, the devs seriously need to recognize those two points. AND, they need to inform the community they do. Then we can start talking about how to do so.

[Malleus011]

Some kind of convergence or cone of fire feels like the best solution to me, but this might work as well. At least it's better than Ghost heat. I'd support this if the Devs tested something like it.

Some suggestions that may not work:

Allow certain small weapons a shorter firing delay or an exception on being fired together. Say, two MG's, SL, ML, SRM2 at a time. Anything bigger gotta chain.

Possible other weapons can be linked - again, I'd stick to small stuff, that must be linked *in the Mechlab*. Pre-linked weapons would also simplify the game for newer players. (For example, the CN9-A's twin ML would come linked at purchase).

Another idea - you can still Alpha Strike. But your Alpha Strike is a re-usable Module fitted to your mech, which works once per battle. Perhaps you could mount more than one.

[Cato Phoenix]

No, just no.

[MustrumRidcully]

Syllogy, on 29 August 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

You're still talking about limiting mechs to only a handful of weapons, regardless of how many hardpoints they have.

No, he doesn't.

Or well, I don't.

Here's the concept I am pursuing:

All weapons have an individual chain-fire delay. This is the time they need after another weapon has been shot to get ready.

Large damage projectile weapons will have a longer delay than low damage beams.

Example values:

AC/20, Gauss Rifle: 1 second
AC/10, PPC: 0.5 seconds
AC/5: 0.2 seconds
AC/2: 0.1 seconds
(ER) Large (Pulse) Laser: 0.1 seconds
Medium (Pulse) Laser: 0.05 seconds
Small (Pulse) Laser: 0.05 seconds
SRMs: 0.1 seconds
LRMs: 0.1 seconds

Example effects:
If you want to fire an AC/20, it takes you a second to fire the second AC/20.
If you want to fire 8 medium lasers, you effectively increase your beam duration from 1 second to 1.4 seconds. That still leaves you with 2.6 seconds to the next shot, so there is still torso twisting opportunity and all that.

So if you stay with many low damage weapons, you will likely fire your weapons in short bursts, while only the really big damage guns will force you to actively split weapons.

[AndyHill]

Hm Mustrum beat me to it, but it would be interesting to know why having no group fire would make you want to carry less weapons on a 'mech. The big guns would get a boost for sure, since nothing will ever beat the ability to project a lot of damage in a short time into a smallish area.

As for Mustrum's ideas, I can't really comment , since I simply don't know how I feel about them. My idea of about 1 second of cooldown between all weapons and about 10 second weapon cooldown for all is just an approximate starting point that should fit most stock 'mechs (I know one design that has 14 weapons, how many are there exactly with more than 9?). I'd really have to test it first for the feel to be able to say how things should go forward from there. I have thought of different firing and global cooldown times for different weapons, though, but DPS is also an important balancing variable and needs to be considered so I would at least start with similar weapon cooldowns (one of the goals would be to make 'mechs die slower).

Joseph Mallan, on 29 August 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

On removing group fire... Forget about it. You don't like me shooting you with everything I got? Tough! I design my Mechs to throw the most damage with the best heat I can. I play to win, not to make you feel good.

Congratulations, you have mastered the fundamentals of MWO 'mech building basics 101 and know the only effective way to build 'mechs. Unfortunately high pinpoint designs also break the BattleTech-based damage mechanism and make the gameplay too much of boom & hide with emphasis on sniper weapons, so ideally I feel that the design should be somewhat different.

[Syllogy]

AndyHill, on 30 August 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Hm Mustrum beat me to it, but it would be interesting to know why having no group fire would make you want to carry less weapons on a 'mech. The big guns would get a boost for sure, since nothing will ever beat the ability to project a lot of damage in a short time into a smallish area.

Because there is no point in carrying 6 medium lasers if you have to wait 1 second between firing each one, and they only have a 3 second cooldown.

[Taemien]

This favors boats over mixed loadouts. That makes it.. well junk. MW2 didn't really have group fire and the favorite thing to do was to throw on a bunch of Medium Lasers because of it. Same thing will happen here. So sorry, OP. You're idea was tried by Activision and it failed.

Anything that nerfs my 2xAC5, 2xSRM6, 2xMed Laser Jagermech isn't a good thing. That mech works well now. Its in the spirit of the game. Isn't OP by any means (cept in my hands). And isn't a boat. Why would anyone wish to nerf something like that?

Having to fire those weapons one at a time would suck. I'd be better off getting a Jenner with 6 Medium lasers and going pew pew pew at 151kph where I'd be a god (Good luck nailing me with each weapon you have at one at a time). You know what.. thats what actually happened in MW2.

[MustrumRidcully]

Syllogy, on 30 August 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Because there is no point in carrying 6 medium lasers if you have to wait 1 second between firing each one, and they only have a 3 second cooldown.

Also depends on when the cooldown for the chain-fire system starts. If it starts on first trigger press, you don't need to wait a second.

The system I propose would also start counting on the start of the beam, so you would fire multiple lasers after each other.

Quote

This favors boats over mixed loadouts. That makes it.. well junk. MW2 didn't really have group fire and the favorite thing to do was to throw on a bunch of Medium Lasers because of it. Same thing will happen here. So sorry, OP. You're idea was tried by Activision and it failed.

Medium Lasers in MW2 are different weapons than Medium Lasers in MW:O. They are beams that deal damage over time here. That will make a few differences.

The current system does encourage boating more than anything else.

Equip an AC/20 and 4 Medium Lasers? That's a bad idea in MW:O, since the AC/20 needs lead time, the 4 MLs don't need that, but you must hold them on target for a second.

If you change two Dual AC/20, you can fire one shot and everything works great. Or you equip 8 MLs and you fire and hold the lasers all at once.

With a forced chain-fire, the differences between boat and non-boat shrink. The Dual AC/20 mech can't fire both weapons at once, so if instead of the 2nd AC/20 you'd use 4 Medium Lasers, you would have a similar effect.

IN fact, with my approach, the non-boat might have a small advantage - the delay between the AC/20 would be 1 second (if we take my example values), but the delay between the AC/20 and the first of the 4 Medium Lasers would only be 0.05 seconds, which is almost instantly. It would probably be a bit too fast to fire that way immediately, butit means the moment you've readjusted your aim for the hitscan lasers, you would fire on target.

But on the other hand, if you took the full 8 medium lasers, you would need to hold them on target for 1.4 seconds, which will likely lead to you spreading a lot of damage - a shorter duration might have been more efficient.

(Whether the specific numbers I chose are the best choise is something that might need to be evaluated and tested.)

[Joseph Mallan]

AndyHill, on 30 August 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Congratulations, you have mastered the fundamentals of MWO 'mech building basics 101 and know the only effective way to build 'mechs. Unfortunately high pinpoint designs also break the BattleTech-based damage mechanism and make the gameplay too much of boom & hide with emphasis on sniper weapons, so ideally I feel that the design should be somewhat different.

Sorry What? My builds don't utilize high pin point delivery.
My D-DC
1 Gauss
1 ER PPC
3 SRM6

My Victor
1 Gauss
3 Medium
2 SRM6

Sara
4 Medium lasers
2 SSRM

or

1 Large
3 Mediums
(ie Wolfhound build)

So with that, please tell me how I am abusing the High Pin Point Alpha damage Meta?

I have solid Alpha capability without abusing the system. I want to keep my builds but as I always have, I will build the most powerful Build that fits MY style of play. That style uses the kill the enemy fast method.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 29 August 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I thought you played to kill?

If you're dead... I win

[AndyHill]

Syllogy, on 30 August 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Because there is no point in carrying 6 medium lasers if you have to wait 1 second between firing each one, and they only have a 3 second cooldown.

Why would the cooldown be 3 seconds? The current cooldowns are created for a system where you fire once and then wait for the cooldown and then fire again. If you'd be expected to fire multiple shots instead of one alpha, the cooldowns could and probably should be longer.

[AndyHill]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 August 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Sorry What? My builds don't utilize high pin point delivery.
My D-DC
1 Gauss
1 ER PPC
3 SRM6

My Victor
1 Gauss
3 Medium
2 SRM6

Sara
4 Medium lasers
2 SSRM

or

1 Large
3 Mediums
(ie Wolfhound build)

So with that, please tell me how I am abusing the High Pin Point Alpha damage Meta?

I have solid Alpha capability without abusing the system. I want to keep my builds but as I always have, I will build the most powerful Build that fits MY style of play. That style uses the kill the enemy fast method.

Those are not exactly the FoTM pinpoint alpha builds so common on the fields, but they have some symptoms of (pinpoint) alphaing. The Atlas has a long range pinpoint strike of 25 whereas without group fire it would have a maximum of 15 without group fire. Victor has 15 + 15 whereas it would otherwise have 15 + 5 + 5 + 5. Sara is something of a pinpoint build, though, having a 20 point strike instead of a meager 5 or 23 instead of 8 + 5 + 5 + 5.

Missiles aren't pinpoint, but they're a part of the alpha strike meta as well now that they are useful.

[AndyHill]

Taemien, on 30 August 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

This favors boats over mixed loadouts. That makes it.. well junk. MW2 didn't really have group fire and the favorite thing to do was to throw on a bunch of Medium Lasers because of it. Same thing will happen here. So sorry, OP. You're idea was tried by Activision and it failed.

Anything that nerfs my 2xAC5, 2xSRM6, 2xMed Laser Jagermech isn't a good thing. That mech works well now. Its in the spirit of the game. Isn't OP by any means (cept in my hands). And isn't a boat. Why would anyone wish to nerf something like that?

Having to fire those weapons one at a time would suck. I'd be better off getting a Jenner with 6 Medium lasers and going pew pew pew at 151kph where I'd be a god (Good luck nailing me with each weapon you have at one at a time). You know what.. thats what actually happened in MW2.

Boats will always have their strengths due to simplicity of their loadout, but i'd say nothing favors boat builds more than the current (pinpoint) alpha meta. I have to admit it's been time since I played MW2, but wasn't there a pretty normal group fire in it? People would load massive amounts of SLAS and blow stuff up with one click? What was different compared to MWO for example?

As for firing weapons singly vs. in multiples, yeah that would suck until you notice that it's the same for everyone. Your survivability would go up as well as your enemies'. Alternatively it might be possible to drop the double armor that's in place simply because the BTech damage system can't handle pinpoint meta and your ability to deliver hurt would actually be increased - if you have the wit to get into a good position for the longer attack run and the skill to get a number of fast successive shots into the target.

As for your Jäger build, it does have some pinpoint potential currently and its effectiveness would go down, but not as much as for the dedicated sniper boats.

[Almond Brown]

Hexenhammer, on 27 August 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

This is what people believed they were getting when we heard about MWO.

If PGI used used a large targeting circle like the video has PGI would get the crit and strip game they say they want and we wouldn't have 30-40point alpha strikes to the head at 900 meters.

Sorry Hexen. Not even close. That was for what was supposed to become MW5. A Single player game with online action. it got the boot as financeers believed that the 21th century ADHD crowd of gamers would not go for it.

If anyone thought that was what MWO was going to be like, then they were mistaken, not mislead.

[Almond Brown]

Syllogy, on 28 August 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

So what's the delay in time then?

As is would work. A player creates 3 Groups with 4 weapons per group. When activated, only any 1 group can fire and each weapon has a .5s delay in the group. When group 1 completes, the next group queued to fire begins. Rinse and Repeat. Any Group who contents exceed the total firing time of the total group, then cool downs kick in to Hold the group until all CD's in the group are completed. A smart player(s) would always fire a weapon with a quick CD last in any group.

[Odins Fist]

AndyHill, on 12 July 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

"REMOVE GROUP FIRE"

"NO", now go away, and please stop resurrecting awful threads with bad ideas, you will confuse new people that "THINK" that you know what you are talking about. We don't need another Jim Jones incident happening. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
.

[Joseph Mallan]

AndyHill, on 30 August 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Those are not exactly the FoTM pinpoint alpha builds so common on the fields, but they have some symptoms of (pinpoint) alphaing. The Atlas has a long range pinpoint strike of 25 whereas without group fire it would have a maximum of 15 without group fire. Victor has 15 + 15 whereas it would otherwise have 15 + 5 + 5 + 5. Sara is something of a pinpoint build, though, having a 20 point strike instead of a meager 5 or 23 instead of 8 + 5 + 5 + 5.

Missiles aren't pinpoint, but they're a part of the alpha strike meta as well now that they are useful.

So firing 2 weapons at long range is OP now? 25 is well under the whine of the month, You bet I am a part of it. In fact I was doing this kind of Alpha striking for some 24+ years. Even better My builds should be Heat Neutral by all construction rules of the past. On TT my Atlas would never over heat nor would it in MW 2-4. So what the problem is even by your example of my builds is Convergence not actual Alpha. Stacking multiple weapons on a Targeting computer should make convergence harder to achieve, the damage would spread over more area and the whine can die a ignominious death.

[Zyllos]

Gallowglas, on 12 July 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

How would you ever bind enough keys to effectively play something like a Stalker, which has a large number of weapons? Having 10 keys that each fire a separate weapon seems like it would be really frustrating gameplay.

I don't think anyone really answered this question well.

But isn't that was chain fire is for?

Left/Right Arm Lasers, all on group 1. Thus, while your arm redicule is on target, pressing 1 would cause a laser to fire.
Left/Right/Center Torso lassers, all on group 2. Thus, while your torso redicule is on target, pressing 2 would cause a laser to fire.
Left/Right Arm SRMs, all on group 3.
Left/Right Arm SRMs, all on group 4.
All LRMs on group 5. If you have a lockon, fire the next set of LRMs.

This isn't hard to do with a 2 button mouse and keyboard. Left/Right Mouse for group 1/2, and 4 keys on the keyboard for group 3/4/5/6.