75 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Just got done listening to the 0080 podcast and was totally floored by the fact that the lady on the podcast commented that JJs were only suppose to have lift not forward thrust.

I am wondering where they get that idea? I have read virtually every Battletech novel in existance and in each and every one of them, JJ not only have forward thrust but are vectorable.

It may be a design mechanic choice behind the fact they don't have forward momentum but it is definately not canon and with the new movement mechanic, makes JJs very hard if not totally impossible at times.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Viktor Drake, on 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Just got done listening to the 0080 podcast and was totally floored by the fact that the lady on the podcast commented that JJs were only suppose to have lift not forward thrust.

I am wondering where they get that idea? I have read virtually every Battletech novel in existance and in each and every one of them, JJ not only have forward thrust but are vectorable.

It may be a design mechanic choice behind the fact they don't have forward momentum but it is definately not canon and with the new movement mechanic, makes JJs very hard if not totally impossible at times.

She's incorrect since in the TT a mech with JJs must move in any direction when using them. This means movement as well as being vectored. I highly recommend that the developers of this game actually play the TT version before they come up with wild and incorrect ideas like this one.

[Ransack]

“The Rifleman's autocannons spat out a hail of slugs amid great gouts of flame. Smoldering shells rained from the shoulder ejection ports to the ground. The 'Mech tracked the speeding Valkyrie as best it could, sending after it a jagged trail of autocannon shells.

Too close now! Justin thought, waiting until the last possible second to kick in his jump jets, which sent him rocketing ahead of the autocannon slugs. Knowing he could not land on his feet at this speed, Justin hit the ground and rolled his 'Mech forward. Then he rose to one knee, launched another flight of LRMs, and let the launch-reaction carry him backward as twin laser lances melted the ground where he had crouched.”

Excerpt From: Michael A. Stackpole. “Warrior: En Garde - BattleTech 5.” [redacted]

Seems like they are supposed to provide forward thrust to me. But then again, we know they are taking liberties from canon.

Edited by Egomane, 12 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.
copyright violation

[Foxfire]

That was the entire draw of the spider... was the multi vector JJ's on the thing. Not just momentum + limited control but full vector control.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Ransack, on 12 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

“The Rifleman's autocannons spat out a hail of slugs amid great gouts of flame. Smoldering shells rained from the shoulder ejection ports to the ground. The 'Mech tracked the speeding Valkyrie as best it could, sending after it a jagged trail of autocannon shells.

Too close now! Justin thought, waiting until the last possible second to kick in his jump jets, which sent him rocketing ahead of the autocannon slugs. Knowing he could not land on his feet at this speed, Justin hit the ground and rolled his 'Mech forward. Then he rose to one knee, launched another flight of LRMs, and let the launch-reaction carry him backward as twin laser lances melted the ground where he had crouched.”

Excerpt From: Michael A. Stackpole. “Warrior: En Garde - BattleTech 5.” [redacted]

Seems like they are supposed to provide forward thrust to me. But then again, we know they are taking liberties from canon.

Sounds like shooting LRMs are supposed to knock you around too.

Edited by Egomane, 12 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.
quote clean-up

[Khavi Vetali]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I highly recommend that the developers of this game actually play the TT version before they come up with wild and incorrect ideas like this one.

You do realize that none of the NGNG staff are Devs, right? And that NGNG is not a part of PGI? They host Garth frequently, and occasionally have other developers on their podcast, but they have no more say in the development of MWO than any other member of the community.

For what it's worth, I also disagree with the NGNG staff member's concept of Jump Jet thrust.

Edited by Khavi Vetali, 12 July 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Khavi Vetali, on 12 July 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

You do realize that none of the NGNG staff are Devs, right? And that NGNG is not a part of PGI? They host Garth frequently, and occasionally have other developers on their podcast, but they have no more say in the development of MWO than any other member of the community.

For what it's worth, I also disagree with the NGNG staff member's concept of Jump Jet thrust.

Then the NGNG staff have to play the TT or at least have an understanding of the source material to do proper reporting. Either way, this is a failure on their part.

[Ransack]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 12 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Sounds like shooting LRMs are supposed to knock you around too.

Yeah, and hitting someone with them under 90 meters can actually hurt them. There are a lot of examples of the liberties taken. Perhaps one day they will read the books and make adjustments (Yeah right).

[Sybreed]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Then the NGNG staff have to play the TT or at least have an understanding of the source material to do proper reporting. Either way, this is a failure on their part.

gotta agree with you, since they're an important "voice", they need to know what they're talking about. I'd rather have no one talk in my behalf than someone misinformed.

[von Pilsner]

Sybreed, on 12 July 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

gotta agree with you, since they're an important "voice", they need to know what they're talking about. I'd rather have no one talk in my behalf than someone misinformed.

Well said, their interviewing style does not appeal to me (interrupting guests and trying to make their points for them).

[Angel of Annihilation]

Wether they are part of PGI or not, they still represent it and should be up to date with correct information. Also I normally don't view the podcast so as a visitor just dropping in, I assumed they were at least "in the know" about things and they also keep talking about how they were going to be discussing things with Paul like they could just walk in and speak to him.

As far as JJs, yeah I was going to also point out that in TT, I could have my JJ equiped mech stand perfectly still turn after turn then, FLATFOOTED, jump 120-150m in any direction.

As far as MWO is concerned, I kind of laugh at myself because prior to the movement change, I just thought I was doing something wrong with clicking my buttons because I only occassionally noticed them not working like I thought they should. It wasn't until the movement change when I noticed something definately wasn't right with the way jump jets were working. I even went back to the key bindings and was looking for something I had previously missed. I guess I never noticed because until the movement change, it was never and issue keeping forward momentum and I never got stuck at the very edge of a cliff because it was no issue just to step over the top and move on.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 12 July 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[B B Wolfe]

Oh, dear god. By design of this game jump jets do not have vectored thrust. They are fantastically awesome in all other BattleTech media, but in this game you are not meant to have vectored thrust by the previous operating parameters.

[AdamBaines]

without vectored JJ, we will never be able to perform the Death from Above :-(

Im hoping that they will give us Vectored JJ eventually.

[Wingbreaker]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Then the NGNG staff have to play the TT or at least have an understanding of the source material to do proper reporting. Either way, this is a failure on their part.

And who's to say that within the thirty meter distance that the hex represents, you aren't also taking a running start? Remember, as a TT game, anything that occurs within that hex is basically fudged in as part of the movement round.

Further, you can turn in mid air with JJs currently.

We have also apparently forgotten the ridiculousness of MW3's JJs where you could effectively skate. (Granted, this was due to a bug, buuuuuut...)

[James The Fox Dixon]

Wingbreaker, on 12 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

And who's to say that within the thirty meter distance that the hex represents, you aren't also taking a running start? Remember, as a TT game, anything that occurs within that hex is basically fudged in as part of the movement round.

Further, you can turn in mid air with JJs currently.

We have also apparently forgotten the ridiculousness of MW3's JJs where you could effectively skate. (Granted, this was due to a bug, buuuuuut...)

The answer to your question is in the rules themselves since jumping is a separate movement mode than running. You either run or you jump there is no running then jumping in the rules. The lore also supports this as mechs with JJs do not use running starts, but are lifted off of the ground to move where they want with momentum. Keep in mind that JJs allow a mech to move in any direction, but does not give the option to hover. The only mechs that had the ability to hover were Land-Air Mechs when they were in Air-Mech mode as part of their rules.

Here are the current rules for JJs from Total Warfare:

Quote

’Mechs must be standing at the start of the turn in order to jump. When a unit jumps, it can move 1 hex for every available Jumping MP. It may jump in any direction, regardless of its original facing. The player chooses a target hex for the unit to jump into, and then the unit travels to that hex along the shortest possible route landing with any facing desired. A unit can jump over and into any hex, regardless of terrain type. If this path crosses a level higher than the sum of the unit’s Jumping MP plus the level of the hex in which the jump started, then the unit cannot make the jump. If more than one possible path exists between the unit and its goal hex, the player may declare which path his unit takes.

Like I said NGNG should play TT or have read the rules to know if they can form a reasonable opinion otherwise it's a failure on the part of them in the research department.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 12 July 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[B B Wolfe]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Like I said NGNG should play TT or have read the rules to know if they can form a reasonable opinion otherwise it's a failure on the part of them in the research department.

You could address me directly, you know. Or read what I posted.

Edited by B B Wolfe, 12 July 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

B B Wolfe, on 12 July 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

You could address me directly, you know. Or read what I posted.

I would have BB if I had known it was you. You didn't post in this thread until now, so how am I supposed to read what you've posted?

[B B Wolfe]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

I would have BB if I had known it was you. You didn't post in this thread until now, so how am I supposed to read what you've posted?

I would suggest scrolling up.

[James The Fox Dixon]

B B Wolfe, on 12 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I would suggest scrolling up.

I read it and I addressed that in my first post in this thread. So there ya have it, it's a failure on both NGNG's and PGI's fault for not knowing the original rules for jumping in BT.

[Wingbreaker]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 July 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

The answer to your question is in the rules themselves since jumping is a separate movement mode than running. You either run or you jump there is no running then jumping in the rules. The lore also supports this as mechs with JJs do not use running starts, but are lifted off of the ground to move where they want with momentum. Keep in mind that JJs allow a mech to move in any direction, but does not give the option to hover. The only mechs that had the ability to hover were Land-Air Mechs when they were in Air-Mech mode as part of their rules.

Here are the current rules for JJs from Total Warfare:


Like I said NGNG should play TT or have read the rules to know if they can form a reasonable opinion otherwise it's a failure on the part of them in the research department.

That rule does not preclude a running jump within the hex. In fact, it fits entirely within what it describes. Mechs must be standing AT THE START of the turn to jump.

Or, well, Perhaps we should stop trying to rules lawyer when it's a translated feature in the first place.