99 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

 
 
================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

Excellent post!

Though... for the ACs, do you have any data with regard to burst sizes (beyond what also appears in my posts (here and here))?

[3Xtr3m3]

Awesome thread!

I have tried to (google)/find mention of a handgun that had thirteen rounds in the chamber that could be fired one at a time or all thirteen in .25 seconds. It described the latter as a sustained burn rather than a quick bang.

[Koniving]

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Super useful information

Thank you. I've been working on demonstrations of autocannon variants. Strum Wealth introduced me to your post.

Here's the post that led him to introduce me to your post, which will help me greatly in working out more videos demonstrating them within MWO.

[Karl Streiger]

However the OP has made a valid post. Weight in MWO didn't make sense.

I found the very very excellent CORPS Vehicle Design and 3G³ - http://www.btrc.net/ - that allow an abstract creation of todays vehicles as well as "future" technologies - with out turning to space opera.

So with some conversions to Heavy Gear or BattleLords - i tried to do the same for BattleTech - much harder than I thought.
However - i believe that 1 point of CBT damage has the force of 9 - 10 MJ. (TNT - C8- CBT damge - cross checks with hand guns)

So the often used 120mm smoothbore would do a damage of ~ 2 - 3 points of BT damage - but at much lesser weight.

The major reason for BattleMechs beeing that light is the armor. AFAIK the armor must be a kind of polymer or even paper (250mm paper armor - for the Dragon) - even with ablative black hole magic - it should not be able to take the damage of a 25mm ap shell.

I'm still working on a LogiMech - and I will use the Dragon as an example.

[XphR]

k0sh, on 29 July 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I thought that graphene was invented by some Polish guys, as they are holding patent for it.

Discovered, the 'method of production' was the invention. Konstantin Novoselov(Professor and Research Associate) and Andre Geim (Professor of Condensed Matter Physics) both Russian by birth.

[XphR]

3Xtr3m3, on 09 August 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Awesome thread!

I have tried to (google)/find mention of a handgun that had thirteen rounds in the chamber that could be fired one at a time or all thirteen in .25 seconds. It described the latter as a sustained burn rather than a quick bang.

Are you referring to the metal storm? They made many variants (of all shapes sizes and calibers) but all contained the rounds stacked in the barrel/clip, and many had barrel clusters. They are able to put multiple rounds down barrel before kickback can occur. The personal arms are cool but the real fun is in the bigger emplacements and vehicle mounted units.

[Hexenhammer]

Are we complaining about how Superman is totally unrealistic but Batman isn't again?

[Brenden]

Don't forget guys, this game was made in the future of the 1980s. I don't think they were all engineers. I'm sure some of them made things up on the fly. Like how a cannon that fires four shells at 55mms does the same damage as a 64mm cannon that fires only two.

[SethAbercromby]

To those people arguing with density, try to calculate the Density of a modern battle tank and you will notice that their density is fairly low as well. How does that happen even though those actually exist in reality? That is because density can only calculated properly if you have objects that are completely solid without any air mixed in. Tanks have a lot of said air to fit in a crew, ammo, electronics and so on and so forth. Most of their actual mass comes from the heavy armor plating which could be made into a block of mass that has far smaller dimensions than the actual tank.

A BattleMech in the BattleTech Universe also has a lot of air to support electronics, a pilot, ammo and someone has pointed out that even the limbs have a lot of open space to allow for maintenance without stripping down half of the 'Mech.

[Johnny Z]

Kiiyor, on 13 July 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Battletech physics laugh derisively at real physics.

Any type of comparison between the two is like comparing a brick wrapped in alfalfa sprouts to a children's playground slide.

Rofl, very funny but wrong, mechs are totally realistic. Try explaining the personal computer to someone a mere 150 years ago and they would say beyond fiction, let alone what will be possible in 1000 years.

[Karl Streiger]

SethAbercromby, on 05 September 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

To those people arguing with density, try to calculate the Density of a modern battle tank and you will notice that their density is fairly low as well. How does that happen even though those actually exist in reality? That is because density can only calculated properly if you have objects that are completely solid without any air mixed in. Tanks have a lot of said air to fit in a crew, ammo, electronics and so on and so forth. Most of their actual mass comes from the heavy armor plating which could be made into a block of mass that has far smaller dimensions than the actual tank.

A BattleMech in the BattleTech Universe also has a lot of air to support electronics, a pilot, ammo and someone has pointed out that even the limbs have a lot of open space to allow for maintenance without stripping down half of the 'Mech.

Well density alone will not work.
Lets suggest that structure is bones and joints only

weight for cockpit, engine and gyroscope - are weight for power plant, power train (myomer), cables and other devices including the field toilet for your pilot.

armor is simple that - the hull.

including in the weapon weight is the armor of those and the magazines, capacitors and storrage banks for the Mech.

heat sinks = radiators etc.

Johnny Z, on 05 September 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Rofl, very funny but wrong, mechs are totally realistic. Try explaining the personal computer to someone a mere 150 years ago and they would say beyond fiction, let alone what will be possible in 1000 years.

Well thats almost a good idea.
We always think that BattleMechs are less supperior to todays technology (given alone the missing ability to attack targets beyond the range of a today infantry rifle)

But thats the game - what is the Mech behind?
Take for example the RHA - a M1A2's armor is listened as 600-1300mm RHA.... so given the weight of the tank - its armor must be three times as effective as the armor of a WW2 MBT.

For example the Boron Carbon or Carbon Nanotubes - are more flexible and harder as RHA - at less than 50% of the mass of steel.
Given the ability to produce there stuff in ZERO-g maybe BattleMech Grade armor will again be trice as effectiv.

So take for example the Marsden MBT: 60t ~ M1A2
15t armor - 30t i can only guess that 50% of the M1A2 mass is the armor but

However - the weight ot the Marsden ICE - including tracks and fuel - is equal to the M1A2 - both can move with 50kph through terrain.

The only thing the Marsden has the M1A2 has not are those ATMs in the front (in BT terms SRM 6s)


So condisdering armored vehicle i would say - could be explained.
But Mechs - Mechs are a complete other story... lets suggest the M1A2 front facing hull has an area of (with parts of the lower and parts of the upper side - 5m²
So has the Marsden....with 52 points of armor - for the frontal hull.

A Mech with the same armor is the Atlas - when the Atlas have a size of 16m height - using the MWO modell...
I have torso areal of 36m² maybe even more... considering side torso and central torso = 111 armor points.

So the armor per m² ~ 3.5
The Marsden has a armor value of m³ ~ 8

That means on the long run that the Atlas is not as good as armored as the M1A2.

[990Dreams]

Carbon nano tubes, iridium, ceramic alloys, nuff said.
Iridium boils at apx. 6000 degrees Celsius.
(Pure) Carbon Nano tubes are stronger than steel (per strand)
Ceramics (superconductors, heaters, coolers, etc) are just weird and may hold unknown properties.

[CrashieJ]

Corusmaximus, on 12 July 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

So I am a little baffled by the weight scale of the mechs.

Modern tanks weigh almost as much as a heavy mech, and a few are heavier than assaults.
M1 Abrams weighs about 68 tons.
The French FCM-F1 was 138 tons (circa 1940).

Yet the Atlas weighs only 100 tons. Makes no sense. Are these things made of plastic?

80's technology.

[Nebfer]

Strum Wealh, on 09 August 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Excellent post!

Though... for the ACs, do you have any data with regard to burst sizes (beyond what also appears in my posts (here and here))?

Sadly not really, most of the time the novels do not mention burst sizes, though theirs an interesting quandary with the Pontiac 100. 500 rounds per ton of ammo makes it impossible for it to be a 100mm gun, at 2kg per projectile that's the size of a 40mm. A 100mm round should be in the 10kg+ per projectile. That said the real issue is in Warrior En Garde (ch 31). When Justin was facing off Norton in the arena His Pontiac 100 AC-20 (with 3 tons of ammo IIRC) was effectively jammed before he got to use it so it's fully loaded, so he dumps the ammo, and it states that some 200 shells where dropped. This equating to some 70 rounds per ton or 14 rounds per shot. At ~14.28kg per round is much more plausible for a 100mm round. Also the 10 rounds for the 150mm on the Hetzer is equally problematic in the projectile weight department (5 or 6 would be ok though).

Though per the rules ACs are generally treated as single shot weapons, though in Tactical ops their is a rule that allows you to split the damage between two units that are next to each other, indicating that autocannons seem to fire at lest two rounds per "shot". Though the fluff and novels for the most part indicate that autocannons are large caliber machineguns. that at the lest behave some what like a 40mm bofors gun (loads two four round clips, before needing to reload (though IIRC in real life it would only actually fire six, as it would not fire the last two unless reloaded, or on semi auto))

[Strum Wealh]

Nebfer, on 14 September 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Sadly not really, most of the time the novels do not mention burst sizes, though theirs an interesting quandary with the Pontiac 100. 500 rounds per ton of ammo makes it impossible for it to be a 100mm gun, at 2kg per projectile that's the size of a 40mm. A 100mm round should be in the 10kg+ per projectile. That said the real issue is in Warrior En Garde (ch 31). When Justin was facing off Norton in the arena His Pontiac 100 AC-20 (with 3 tons of ammo IIRC) was effectively jammed before he got to use it so it's fully loaded, so he dumps the ammo, and it states that some 200 shells where dropped. This equating to some 70 rounds per ton or 14 rounds per shot. At ~14.28kg per round is much more plausible for a 100mm round. Also the 10 rounds for the 150mm on the Hetzer is equally problematic in the projectile weight department (5 or 6 would be ok though).

Though per the rules ACs are generally treated as single shot weapons, though in Tactical ops their is a rule that allows you to split the damage between two units that are next to each other, indicating that autocannons seem to fire at lest two rounds per "shot". Though the fluff and novels for the most part indicate that autocannons are large caliber machineguns. that at the lest behave some what like a 40mm bofors gun (loads two four round clips, before needing to reload (though IIRC in real life it would only actually fire six, as it would not fire the last two unless reloaded, or on semi auto))

On the other hand, the weight for the Marauder's shells seems to work out a bit better...

The Marauder's "GM Whirlwind" AC/5: 120mm autocannon that fires in 3-shell bursts per cassette/"round".
AC/5 ammo in BT comes in sets of 20 cassettes per ton.
(20 cassettes/ton) * (3 shells/cassette) = 60 shells per ton
(1000 kg/ton) / (60 shells/ton) = 16.667 kg per shell

By contrast, the M830 High Explosive Anti-Tank Multi-Purpose Tracer ("HEAT-MP-T"/"MPAT") shell fired by the M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun (the main gun on the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank) has a mass of 24.2 kg per shell.
Its successor, the M830A1 MPAT, has a mass of 22.3 kg.

The 7.53 kg difference between the Whirlwind's shells and the M830 (or the 5.63 kg difference between the Whirlwind's shells and the M830A1) could be attributed to (among other things) the much smaller propellant charge (which would, in part, serve as an in-universe explanation for the short effective range of the weapon, if one isn't using the "LOS range" rules from TacOps)...?

[Mao of DC]

I have a thought that might explain why an Atlas is only 100 tons. Everything in this universe uses the metric system. So what if the Atlas is actually 100 metric tons or long tons. If this is the case then the Atlas weights 220 English tons. That's my 2 C-Bills.

[Blo0dGusHeR]

0okami, on 12 July 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

No, they are made from non existing super metals that are harvested using the tears for reality dropped by people that puts a questionmark behind their weight.

Okay well in that case I can come up for every scientific excuse to bring back just about every feature from MW4 LOL

[Karl Streiger]

Strum Wealh, on 15 September 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

On the other hand, the weight for the Marauder's shells seems to work out a bit better...

The Marauder's "GM Whirlwind" AC/5: 120mm autocannon that fires in 3-shell bursts per cassette/"round".
AC/5 ammo in BT comes in sets of 20 cassettes per ton.
(20 cassettes/ton) * (3 shells/cassette) = 60 shells per ton
(1000 kg/ton) / (60 shells/ton) = 16.667 kg per shell

By contrast, the M830 High Explosive Anti-Tank Multi-Purpose Tracer ("HEAT-MP-T"/"MPAT") shell fired by the M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun (the main gun on the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank) has a mass of 24.2 kg per shell.
Its successor, the M830A1 MPAT, has a mass of 22.3 kg.

The 7.53 kg difference between the Whirlwind's shells and the M830 (or the 5.63 kg difference between the Whirlwind's shells and the M830A1) could be attributed to (among other things) the much smaller propellant charge (which would, in part, serve as an in-universe explanation for the short effective range of the weapon, if one isn't using the "LOS range" rules from TacOps)...?

Hm - next problem - the casing - the ACs use casings that have to eject after the shot:
The M830 did use a casing from celloulose or nitro cellulose - much lighter and there is hardly any ejectable casing left.
Including a case of braz that could be reused - the weight of a 120mm shell would highly increse.

Next thing is that AC ammunition is refered as AP HE - so a projectile will weight even more.
On the other side - its really easy to take the 8 metric tons of a AC 5 - and include one or multiple barrels - one or multiple reciver, some armor and a armored magazine including the ammunition - without any need of the additional ton of ammunition.

[Sasha Volkova]

Blo0dGusHeR, on 15 September 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Okay well in that case I can come up for every scientific excuse to bring back just about every feature from MW4 LOL

Okay well in that case you better get startet.
The space fairies are not gonna do it for you, you know...

[Strum Wealh]

Mao of DC, on 15 September 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

I have a thought that might explain why an Atlas is only 100 tons. Everything in this universe uses the metric system. So what if the Atlas is actually 100 metric tons or long tons. If this is the case then the Atlas weights 220 English tons. That's my 2 C-Bills.

1 metric ton ("tonne") = 1000 kilograms = 2,204.6 pounds
1 short ton (US ton) = 2000 pounds = 907.18474 kilograms
1 long ton (Imperial ton) = 2,240 pounds = 1016 kilograms

Weight of AS7-D Atlas = 100 metric tons = 110.23 short (US) tons = 98.42 long (Imperial) tons

----------

Karl Streiger, on 02 September 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

The major reason for BattleMechs beeing that light is the armor. AFAIK the armor must be a kind of polymer or even paper (250mm paper armor - for the Dragon) - even with ablative black hole magic - it should not be able to take the damage of a 25mm ap shell.

"Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations.Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations."

Personally, I've always thought of armor points as some measure of thickness (millimeters or even centimeters, perhaps?) of the outermost, steel layer.

----------

Karl Streiger, on 15 September 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Hm - next problem - the casing - the ACs use casings that have to eject after the shot:
The M830 did use a casing from celloulose or nitro cellulose - much lighter and there is hardly any ejectable casing left.
Including a case of braz that could be reused - the weight of a 120mm shell would highly increse.

Next thing is that AC ammunition is refered as AP HE - so a projectile will weight even more.
On the other side - its really easy to take the 8 metric tons of a AC 5 - and include one or multiple barrels - one or multiple reciver, some armor and a armored magazine including the ammunition - without any need of the additional ton of ammunition.

From the previously-linked Wikipedia article:

• "The [M830] cartridge weighs approximately 53.4 lb (24.2 kg)."
  
• "The [M830A1] cartridge weighs 49.2 lb (22.3 kg), with the projectile accounting for 25.1 lb (11.4 kg)."

The per-shell weights being discussed include the weight of the casing, charge, the projectile itself, and so on - they are the cartridge weights, where the weight of the projectile can be as small as ~50% of the cartridge weight.

The weight difference between HEAT and APHE doesn't seem to be significant - one source cites the weight of the 122mm BR-471B APHE shell (used by the ISU-122, among others, diring WWII) as 24.9 kg, versus the 24.2 kg weight of the 120mm M830.