39 replies to this topic

[Jaguar Prime]

It's been a couple days since the announcement of the fix for boating. So why am I still seeing complaints about PPC's.

I stated and argued in a previous thread that one or 2 ppc's were not OP. That only when in quantities of 4 or more did they become a problem. I gather from the fix PGI put forward, they agreed with me.

I honestly feel that most complainers are misrepresenting their problem with PPC's. It isn't so much that it is overpowered, they feel that it's range is. The do not like the long range game. That is why the gauss rifle keeps creeping up into the conversation. Even though it has been nerfed to heck. It's also why you are still seeing complaints about missiles.

Notice how the prime examples of the problem have devolved. First it was the 6 PPC Stalker (only PPC's were in the conversation), then it was the 4 PPC Stalker (they threw in ERPPC's) Now, it's 3 of any high damage direct fire weapon that can shoot 800m+.

My point is, it was never really about PPC's or boating for that matter. It was about short range players feeling that long rang players had an advantage over them. And to an extent.... they did.

Both styles of play should be very viable.

Long range play has received it's nerf with the current fix to boating. Short range play has received a small buff via upping SRM's to 2.0 damage. That may not be enough imo. If LR play is still way to dominant weeks after the changes are implemented. I would suggest a slight weight reduction to all heavy hitting short range weapons. (LBX10, AC10, AC20, 1- 2.5 tons lighter) and possibly a weight drop for the Large pulse laser. I am not a proponent to any damage increases to these weapons.

I don't think Long range weapons should receive anymore nerfs or they may become useless.

Just my opinions. Have fun picking it apart.

[Mister Blastman]

We're rioting because...




If they came up with solutions that both:

a. Worked
b. Made sense
c. In a /timely/ manner

This mess wouldn't be happening.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 13 July 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Zyllos]

Really, I think PPCs are a problem, but only in terms of the heat they produce for their damage, weight, and ease of use (no ammo).

PPCs are no where near hot enough.

But beyond that, pin point convergence is the issue. And with that issue, PPCs is the easiest thing to go to. If PPCs felt balanced, the next item to go to would be many Large or Medium Lasers, or a shift into a mix of PPCs and Gauss Rifles.

[Mister Blastman]

Zyllos, on 13 July 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

But beyond that, pin point convergence is the issue. And with that issue, PPCs is the easiest thing to go to. If PPCs felt balanced, the next item to go to would be many Large or Medium Lasers, or a shift into a mix of PPCs and Gauss Rifles.

This. You see, we might mostly have problems with PPCs right now, but when Clan mechs come and the Clan Dual UAC 20 mechs come around... all sorts of pain is going to be felt because of how easy the game is due to near-instant pin-point convergence.

[Zyllos]

Mister Blastman, on 13 July 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

This. You see, we might mostly have problems with PPCs right now, but when Clan mechs come and the Clan Dual UAC 20 mechs come around... all sorts of pain is going to be felt because of how easy the game is due to near-instant pin-point convergence.

Thats true, also.

Hell, I think 2x AC/20s are an issue now. It's just the PPC/Gauss meta over shadows them due to range.

[soarra]

Jaguar Prime, on 13 July 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

It's been a couple days since the announcement of the fix for boating. So why am I still seeing complaints about PPC's.

I stated and argued in a previous thread that one or 2 ppc's were not OP. That only when in quantities of 4 or more did they become a problem. I gather from the fix PGI put forward, they agreed with me.

I honestly feel that most complainers are misrepresenting their problem with PPC's. It isn't so much that it is overpowered, they feel that it's range is. The do not like the long range game. That is why the gauss rifle keeps creeping up into the conversation. Even though it has been nerfed to heck. It's also why you are still seeing complaints about missiles.

Notice how the prime examples of the problem have devolved. First it was the 6 PPC Stalker (only PPC's were in the conversation), then it was the 4 PPC Stalker (they threw in ERPPC's) Now, it's 3 of any high damage direct fire weapon that can shoot 800m+.

My point is, it was never really about PPC's or boating for that matter. It was about short range players feeling that long rang players had an advantage over them. And to an extent.... they did.

Both styles of play should be very viable.

Long range play has received it's nerf with the current fix to boating. Short range play has received a small buff via upping SRM's to 2.0 damage. That may not be enough imo. If LR play is still way to dominant weeks after the changes are implemented. I would suggest a slight weight reduction to all heavy hitting short range weapons. (LBX10, AC10, AC20, 1- 2.5 tons lighter) and possibly a weight drop for the Large pulse laser. I am not a proponent to any damage increases to these weapons.

I don't think Long range weapons should receive anymore nerfs or they may become useless.

Just my opinions. Have fun picking it apart.

Convergence is the issue i don't care about boating

[Bloody Moon]

Large or Medium Lasers? Seriously?

Those weapons have a weakness, the beam mechanism itself. It gives the enemy time to react with spreading the damage, moving into cover, shooting back.

The problem is that PPCs lack this weakness effectively, it draws the best from the energy weapons and the ballistics and have a reasonable heat efficiency, no wonder it turned out to be so powerful.

[Jaguar Prime]

soarra, on 13 July 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Convergence is the issue i don't care about boating

I honestly like convergence the way it is. I'm also 99% sure it isn't going to change. If it was, it would have been done by now. HHR Insanity pointed out the potential problems with convergence in closed beta and the beginning of open beta (20+ page threads). All the issues that he predicted are currently happening now. So I'm sure PGI was well aware of the potential for the problems and they stuck with their vision. For them to change it at this point would be kind of crazy. (Almost starting over from scratch on balance)

So, did anyone read the post in it's entirety before commenting????? Or just stopped after seeing PPC's.

Edited by Jaguar Prime, 13 July 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

Jaguar Prime, on 13 July 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

So, did anyone read the post in it's entirety?

Yes, it may seem like the brawler weapons' current weakness is the problem, but that is not the case. The entire weapon system is full of problems and every now and then it crashes down on us, creating a mini-apocalypse of a certain weapon system.

This is the direct consequence of the slowly evolving balance.

The game itself is still plagued by decisions that were made in another environment, one where hitting targets was much more difficult due to the non-existing HSR and now the Devs are afraid to change 'cos HSR is still bugged (this is why Paul posted that vote).

However those changes were necessary at the time, the only problem is that they were not reversed fast enough when the circumstances changed.

[DarkJaguar]

OP, PPCs were simply the Label given to the problem. The -problem- is high pixel perfect alpha. Mechwarrior was simply not designed to account for precision shooting. This is further complicated by the odd DPS numbers chosen by PGI, with weapons dealing insane amounts of damage in a relatively short amount of time, even after doubled armor. On top of THAT there's a huge amount of phantom heat capacity, allowing lots of weapons that, per lore, shouldn't be fired more than two at once to fire in groups of 3,4,5, and 6. It's a complex issue, and the PPC is the posterchild of what's wrong. It's funny though, because in closed beta, no one used PPCs. Why? Because there was a slight delay to firing based on your ping, that made it a very skill intensive weapon (the delay was predictable as it directly correlated to your ping), it amuses me when people fight against a CoF because "Skill-Nerf!" when in actuality, the PPC is half as bad as it is right now because skill was nerfed.

[Kunae]

No, the problem is that PGI keeps breaking things and then implementing new things to "counter" or "fix" the thing they broke, rather than actually fixing the cause.

Timeline:

Other than bugs, a week before the end of closed beta the game was moderately-well balanced.

PGI: We'll remove knockdowns and not put anything in to replace them.
Effect: Lights, and especially Jenners, start to dominate the battlefield as they no longer have to worry about running into the enemy. This, combined with the broken netcode, leads to an uproar on the forums, and much player hate directed towards Jenners in particular.

PGI: To fix the light/Jenner problem, we'll super-buff SSRMs.
Effect: Streak-cats abound, and any light that isn't running streaks dies to any light that is carrying them. Streak cats can kill half or more of a team, alone, by streaming SSRMs and using their JJ's effectively.

PGI: To fix "Streak-cat-ageddon" they put in ECM, but give it to DDC's and every light except Jenners, because the playerbase goes into an uproar due to the hatred towards Jenners that PGI created by removing knockdowns. In the same patch they also nerf the hell out of JJ's; gutting any semblance of usefulness. Then PGI goes on vacation for a month.

I could go on and on and on. This is a pattern that they continue to exhibit, and don't even seem to comprehend that they are doing. Until this behavior is acknowledged, and corrected, we will continue to see this stupid BS.

[Lefty Lucy]

A single PPC *is* a balance problem. Weapons get "boated" because they are the most efficient, effective choice for the tons/slots/heat. At 7 tons, a single PPC is a better choice than 7 tons of other weapons. That's why people use lots of them, because this scales linearly with number of weapons that can be equipped.

[Bloody Moon]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

A single PPC *is* a balance problem. Weapons get "boated" because they are the most efficient, effective choice for the tons/slots/heat. At 7 tons, a single PPC is a better choice than 7 tons of other weapons. That's why people use lots of them, because this scales linearly with number of weapons that can be equipped.

Exactly, the problems are there, they are only more visible when there are more than one on a Mech.

[Kunae]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

A single PPC *is* a balance problem. Weapons get "boated" because they are the most efficient, effective choice for the tons/slots/heat. At 7 tons, a single PPC is a better choice than 7 tons of other weapons. That's why people use lots of them, because this scales linearly with number of weapons that can be equipped.

Bloody Moon, on 13 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Exactly, the problems are there, they are only more visible when there are more than one on a Mech.

Yep.

The heat redux and shot-speed increase for the PPC combined with HSR and, most importantly, the gutting of SRMs, made the PPC the weapon of choice.

Fix?:
1. Return PPC heat and shot speed back to what it was, pre-buff
2. Return SRM damage(not streaks) to 2.5 and its spread pattern to February. No sane person considered SRMs to be OP, prior to the "Artemis pathing change", nor really any after it either. SRMs were caught up in the LRM nerf, and the associated splash damage bug, which PGI put a workaround for in, many moons ago.

[Zyllos]

SRMs being 2.0 and SSRMs being 1.5 should do plenty.

PPCs just need to return to their original heat scale, 10 and 15. Maybe add a 0.2 second "charge up" time on the PPC.

But that is just for specific weapon fixes, not the overall weapon systems. No matter what you change, players will continue to chase that weapon loadout that allows for pin point accuracy because damage to a location that is not a maim or kill shot is worthless.

Edited by Zyllos, 13 July 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Kunae]

Zyllos, on 13 July 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

SRMs being 2.0 and SSRMs being 1.5 should do plenty.

The problem with that, is that unless you correct and tighten the spread, SRMs are still mostly worthless. At a minimum, SRMs should always be twice the strength of LRMs. So, with the current configuration, they should be at least 2.2, and I don't think 2.5 is out of line.

[DarkJaguar]

Zyllos, on 13 July 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

SRMs being 2.0 and SSRMs being 1.5 should do plenty.

PPCs just need to return to their original heat scale, 10 and 15. Maybe add a 0.2 second "charge up" time on the PPC.

But that is just for specific weapon fixes, not the overall weapon systems. No matter what you change, players will continue to chase that weapon loadout that allows for pin point accuracy because damage to a location that is not a maim or kill shot is worthless.

I'm glad this is becoming more prevalent knowledge, Pin-point accuracy does not make for a "skill" based or "Fun" game, it makes for a wannabe-sniper fest.

Of all of the successful shooters currently out there, I challenge any of the "Don't nerf skillz" people to name one that -doesn't- use CoF as a balance factor. And those games don't even have location based hit points, so pin-point accuracy wouldn't be nearly as unbalancing as it is in MWO.

Edited by DarkJaguar, 13 July 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[SuomiWarder]

If the OP meant complaints about people boating PPCs post the heat upgrade announcement, then the reason is that the change has not gone into effect yet. Thus we are in the Boat 'em if you git 'em phase before the change.

[Davers]

All the problems in game (from PPC boating to 6 SRM6s all hitting the same section to the devastating LRM flight paths) all demonstrate the same point- high weapon accuracy does not fit well with mechs designed for random damage distribution.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Yes. They were.