51 replies to this topic

[VikingFarmer]

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

[DocBach]

How about a convergence rework where shots aren't random at all and a player and his actions would determine his level of convergence?

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Homeless Bill]

If you rarely get alphaed out of your 'mech, you simply aren't playing in higher Elo tiers. I'm a master of torso twisting; I can keep an Awesome alive longer than most people can keep an Atlas going, but it doesn't matter. Playing against good snipers, you'll die in three shots. Brawling against good snipers, you'll die in three shots.

Hell, I feel bad when I bring the cheese out. Non-cheese players have very little impact on the engagement. Either I aim properly and they die, or I mess up and they get a chance.

What's more is that it takes very little skill. If it was something only skilled players could do, I'd be more okay with it. As it is, using PPCs takes less skill than lasers. Period.

I've run cheese, and I've run against it - extreme, pinpoint damage is killing this game. L2P isn't an answer to such an obvious gameplay imbalance.

[Unbound Inferno]

You see, there's a reason I don't play my K2. The only good K2 build is 4 PPC. Its too common and lacks effort.

You say learn to pilot, I say try playing the same game we are.

[VikingFarmer]

Homeless Bill, on 11 July 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

If you rarely get alphaed out of your 'mech, you simply aren't playing in higher Elo tiers. I'm a master of torso twisting; I can keep an Awesome alive longer than most people can keep an Atlas going, but it doesn't matter. Playing against good snipers, you'll die in three shots. Brawling against good snipers, you'll die in three shots.

Hell, I feel bad when I bring the cheese out. Non-cheese players have very little impact on the engagement. Either I aim properly and they die, or I mess up and they get a chance.

What's more is that it takes very little skill. If it was something only skilled players could do, I'd be more okay with it. As it is, using PPCs takes less skill than lasers. Period.

I've run cheese, and I've run against it - extreme, pinpoint damage is killing this game. L2P isn't an answer to such an obvious gameplay imbalance.

Seeing how ELO is an imaginary number i have no idea how to see, I can't say if I've fought High elo players or not. I've run up against plenty of good snipers through. My question Bill is are you talking 8 mans or pugging? most of my matches are straight up by myself. I rarely see players turn away from me when I'm chewing through their armor, they keep facing me and hoping to get that kill shot, I'm using my arm twist to show minimum profile. I will agree thats its not all L2P but a lot of players in this game could use some piloting lessons

[Donnie Silveray]

Generally making pilots of so called high alpha forced to stagger fire is generally enough to accomplish the pin point mess. With heat threshold now 100% I don't think anyone wants to alpha strike in a 4PPC mech.

[Otto Cannon]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Seeing how ELO is an imaginary number i have no idea how to see, I can't say if I've fought High elo players or not.

I rarely see players turn away from me when I'm chewing through their armor, they keep facing me and hoping to get that kill shot

You just answered your own question...

[One Medic Army]

Twisting don't help when it's 40dmg instantaneously to one armor section.

Just saying.

[Joseph Mallan]

One Medic Army, on 11 July 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Twisting don't help when it's 40dmg instantaneously to one armor section.

Just saying.

Just like being hit with a single AC20 on TT. Its a shame I have to hit a Jenner with an Naval AC40 to leg him!

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Just like being hit with a single AC20 on TT. Its a shame I have to hit a Jenner with an Naval AC40 to leg him!

The AC/20 in TT was a SCARY thing.
it was also very easy to outrange, and had severely restricted ammo.

[Homeless Bill]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Seeing how ELO is an imaginary number i have no idea how to see, I can't say if I've fought High elo players or not. I've run up against plenty of good snipers through. My question Bill is are you talking 8 mans or pugging? most of my matches are straight up by myself. I rarely see players turn away from me when I'm chewing through their armor, they keep facing me and hoping to get that kill shot, I'm using my arm twist to show minimum profile. I will agree thats its not all L2P but a lot of players in this game could use some piloting lessons

I'm talking both 8-mans and PUGing. 8-mans are, of course, far worse, but half of the PUG matches that I play in (and I just did a megagrind through the Awesome 8Q) are absolutely infested with cheese builds.

I totally agree that people suck at this game and need to learn to play. Spectating most players results in severe physical and mental strain on my side. That said, there is one set of loadouts that is, in every way, superior to others: extreme, pinpoint alphas.

Whether or not you can do well is irrelevant. Hell, I managed a 2.25 KDR through the master slot of my 8Q. But I could have done better in a PPC boat. And so could you. It's easy, any player can do it, it takes three or four shots to kill most things, and skilled players can really wreck face with those builds.

Do you play cheese? Have you experienced the terrifying power of the Cheese King 732 first-hand? I play a diverse range of 'mechs and playstyles, and I can say, without a doubt, one of those is objectively superior in terms of damage, kills, range, survivability, and all else. I honestly feel bad when I bring it and there's no cheese on the other team.

Torso twisting used to be a really important skill - a skill that decided who was the better pilot. Now, it's next to useless. Torso twisting doesn't work on smart snipers that wait until you face them to return fire. Torso twisting doesn't work on high alpha builds in general, particularly when they're the ones that can torso twist more than anyone else (four-second cooldown between alphas).

People suck and need to get better, but extreme, pinpoint damage sucks more and needs to get better faster.

[soarra]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

play more and get your w/l up a bit and see what happens with some of these alpha builds..

[Zyllos]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

This is the problem:

If torso twisting is the pinnacle of gameplay, then I guess builds that need to face their target to continue dealing damage are worthless right?

That is a huge fundamental issue with your idea that you *must* torso twist. But even torso twisting doesn't do anything against pin point damage. Sure, you can increase the chance of hitting a side, but all the same still lands all in one place.

[soarra]

Zyllos, on 11 July 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

This is the problem:

If torso twisting is the pinnacle of gameplay, then I guess builds that need to face their target to continue dealing damage are worthless right?

That is a huge fundamental issue with your idea that you *must* torso twist. But even torso twisting doesn't do anything against pin point damage. Sure, you can increase the chance of hitting a side, but all the same still lands all in one place.

i torso twist all the time, then watch my torso twisting as its flying off my assault in 1 or 2 hits..

[Joseph Mallan]

One Medic Army, on 11 July 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

The AC/20 in TT was a SCARY thing.
it was also very easy to outrange, and had severely restricted ammo.

I understand that, but a single AC20 in this game just isn't as big a boogieman as it should be.

[Artgathan]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

Except torso twisting in light and medium mechs only really delays your impending death (while not making you more effective).

A 45 point alpha on any mech less than 50 tons means you instantly lose a component. If you're in a light, you likely have an XL engine, which means a 1-hit kill death if it hits a side torso.

If you're in in a medium, congrats, you just lost 50% of your firepower because half of your mech is missing, and in another 4 seconds you'll lose the other half.

L2P is not the answer here.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree. we dont need convergence, just more ability to spread dmg across mechs in fights.

1. groin shots hit CT - this is a problem, shielding CT is that much harder when it can be hit from behind.

2. pinpoint dmg (nurfed next patch) to chainfire will help spread more damage.

3. more guns like lasers or in that fashion that make it very hard to pinpoint a location without sacrifice.

4. LRMS that spread damage over the mech a touch more rather than just coring mechs rapidly, ditto for SSRMS.

5. reactive/reflective armour and doubling the internal damage mechs can take, or upping damage resistance on CT by 25% perhaps.

6. keeping arms alive if they have ammo and a sidetorso only is destroyed right now sidetorso stripping is too effective.

[Skyfaller]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain....

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

Here's my reply to you:

Stick your head out of cover to take a shot. Receive 6PPC in the face.

Come back and tell me all about your piloting skills.

There is ZERO arguments you can make about piloting or terrain use or any of this crap. You HAVE to expose yourself at some point to take a shot and it is then that you can get hit. The issue is not HOW you drive the mech that gets you hit, its HOW you get hit: massive damage in one pinpoint location.

[DocBach]

Homeless Bill, on 11 July 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

People suck and need to get better, but extreme, pinpoint damage sucks more and needs to get better faster.

here here!

[Wired]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

I can agree with what you say for the most part. Atleast on the piloting part. I have taken to bating people into firing lrms at me so I can dodge out of the way. It gives me a bit of an adrenaline rush.

However, I disagree that torso twisting to distribute damage is the best tactic ever. Whenever I face an opponent that does this, it gives me an opportunity to lower my heat and line up my next shot...